Lets design a Warlord for 5th edition

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
*sigh*

The whole POINT of a design thread is to post your mechanics and get feedback on your design.
Please refer to my last few interactions with mellored, where I critiqued his design and tried to point out the relevant problems so he could fix them. He agreed with me in a few places and disagreed in others, and the dialogue will make his final design stronger.
If you cannot take the criticism, then you should not participate in such a thread.

Of course, it definitely would be nice if our interactions go more down that path.

As far as the Battle Master fighter goes there's a few factors at work.
First, not all fighters get maneuvers. It's a choice. So you can have people who take the martial class and not receive powers.
Because not everyone wants to play a "spellcaster". And the primary reason is because they don't want to have to manage a lot of fiddly powers, not because they're called "spells" or explicitly magical. The simple characters tend to be "martial" to make it easier to direct people to them.
Having a martial character gain a bunch of fiddly spells chosen from a long list is designing a non-spellcaster class like a spellcaster. It says the class is a martial one when it really isn't. It's a bait and switch.

#1 I don't think it's necessary to limit the design options of all "martial" classes for the sole purpose of defining martial as being less complex. There can always be an exception, "most martial classes are not very complex but the warlord is". Having an exception is not a bait and switch.

#2 If it's really not them being spells or spell-like in nature but instead the complexity of it then please stop referring to the issue as one where they are spell-like. It's confusing and only serves a dismissive purpose in the conversation.

The battle master is the compromise design. Because someone people like the concept of playing a warrior but do want some choices of power and complexity.
But, as far as powers go, they're simple. You choose from a list of just sixteen powers and most are just a paragraph long, being shorter than most spells. And there's very little management required, with most being resolved in a single turn. You also have a small "hand size", starting with three maneuvers for three levels of play, and never learning more than nine at level 15. (A warlock hits nine known spells at level 5, while a sorcerer goes from eight to ten at level 4.)

The abilities I referenced were
1. Simple
2. You will choose from a list of maybe 20 or so
3. Very little management required as most are resovled in a single round
4. You will have a small hand size in my system as well, 3-5 "maneuvers" and likely ending at somewhere between 10-15 (exact details haven't been worked out)

Like almost everything you are saying about battlemaster maneuvers apply to the abilities I listed for my warlord.

A good warlord design should appeal to people who don't want to play a spellcaster and not asking them to manage the resources of a full or half spellcaster. (At least by default. That kind of option could be opted into.)

I disagree and I don't see how this has anything to do with good design or should even be considered as a requirement of the design.

Especially the healer warlord. The appeal of that build is a healer that isn't a spellcaster. So it should not play like one, or the player would just play a cleric/ druid/ bard/ sorcerer/ warlock/ paladin.
If playing a warlord feels like you're playing a cleric with "spells" crossed out and "gambits" or "maneuvers" written in then the design has failed.

There we go with the spell-like criticism again... In fact I think you mentioned it in nearly every paragraph I just quoted. The bottom line is that none of the warlord powers I'm suggesting are going to make you feel like you are playing a spellcaster any more than battlemaster maneuvers make you feel like you are playing a spell caster. It's almost like you are a broke record about that...

I'll reply to the rest later.
 

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Continuing my design.
I'll probably avoid uploading another batch until it's closer to done. Likely using up my "space" with uploads.

5MWD - Tactitian Class_Page_3.jpg
As you can see above, I changed the name. I'm wont to do that.
Tactical Acumen is still the big ability here being warlord "cantrips". 4 options each round to choose from, but set so you don't pick.

5MWD - Tactitian Class_Page_4.jpg
*slightly* rephrased Stratagem (trying to keep that clear) and tweaked Overwhelming Assault.

5MWD - Tactitian Class_Page_5.jpg
Added Chirurgeon and Guerrilla subclass abilities
Looking at it now, Triage needs a line that clarifies that the ally can use the Healing Surge immediately. :/

5MWD - Tactitian Class_Page_6.jpg
Still thinking about the Herald. As you can see, it's the first here that modifies Tactical Acumen, basically giving more "cantrips".
Also here is the Marshal, which is my attempt to be a bit more lazylord. Uncertain if I want Reposition to be at-will or recharge with initiative or after short rest.
Direct Assault is totally an at-will attack granter. But, it does require that reaction. And as it's an action, it's replacing two attacks from the PC.

5MWD - Tactitian Class_Page_7.jpg
Not much here. Just a skeleton of future content.
 

mellored

Legend
And here's my warlord revision #365
Changes in green.


Tactician:
Intelligence is your primary stat, as it allows you to analyze battles and formulate plans. Charisma is also important as it allows you to better trick enemies and encourage allies. Some tacticians also like to use weapons, so some strength or dexterity would be useful.

Hit Dice: 1d8
Weapons: All simple and martial weapons.
Armor: Light and medium armor. Shields.
Saves: Int, Wis, Cha

Level 1: Tactical Awareness: Your survey the battlefield and enemies looking for tactical opportunities and openings to exploit. You gain a pool of tactical points equal to your Intelligence modifier + your tactician level (minimum 1). This pool is emptied every time you move into a new area, though most areas are big enough to encompas a single battle.

Assess the Situation: As an action, you gain 3 tactical points.

Instant Planning: When you roll initiative and have no Tactical points you gain 1 point.


Tactics: At the end of a short rest, you can prepare 2 tactics. You can prepare additional ones according to the level chart. You must be able to clearly and communicate with the target for them to benifit. In a battle, creatures can usually hear you at 60'. Using a tactic does not require an action, but you can only use 1 per triggering event. The save DC for any Tactician ability is 8 + your charisma modifier.
In addition, you and your allies can come up with your own plan. Your DM determines the point cost, and should use the current ones as guidelines.

Level 2: Bolt of Insight: You can instantly use Assess the Situation, no action required. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you take a short or long rest.
You gain an additional use at levels ????

Precision Tactics: You can precisely analyze the way a creature moves, it's armor, it's weapons, the size of it's legs and arms, how it carries itself, ect... in order to just exactly how much is needed to overcome it. When you use a Tactic, you can use your reaction to know a creature's relevent scores, such as their exact AC, remaining hit points, saving throw modifier, or to-hit roll for the triggering attack.


Level 3: Command Style: Select a command style. Your choice gives you additional features at levels ???
  • Bravado: Your lead from the front style brings you close to the action, allowing you to analyze foes up close and personal. Whenever you take the attack action or are attacked, you gain 1 tactical point.
  • Guerilla: Hit and run is the name of your game. Whenever you use Assess the Situation, you can hide as a bonus action. In addition, you gain 1 additional tactical points at the start of each battle.
  • Crier: You like stand back to get a larger overview of the battlefield, shouting your commands in a booming voice. Rarely drawing your weapon you focus on adapting to the situation. When you use Assess the Situation and do not move on your turn, you gain additional tactical points equal to half your warlord level. In addition, you can project your voice twice as far as normal.
  • Rascal: Your style revolves around tricking the enemy. You gain the minor illusion cantrip. When you cast an illusion spell, you gain 1 tactical point. Intelligence is your casting modifier.
  • Bastion: A favored of dwarves, your style is to draw a hard line in the sand, and defend it from all invaders. When you use Assess the Situation, select a 10x10 cube on the ground as your point. When you use a Tactic on a creature in that zone, you regain 1 tactical point immediately afterward.


Level 4, 8, 12, 16, 19: ABI

Level 5: Improved Awareness: Analyzing a situation is now second nature. At the start of each of your turns, you gain 1 tactical point. In addition, increase the number of points you gain from Assess the Sitaution to 4.

Tactics
  • Fight On!: (1 point) When an ally takes damage, you can spend a tactical point to let them spend a hit die and add your Charisma modifier, reducing the damage by the result. If the damage is reduced to 0, they gain the remainder as temporary hit points.
  • Cunning Strike: (1 point) When you take the attack action, instead of rolling an attack roll, the target makes an Intelligence saving throw. If they fail, you hit.
    [*]Explot Weakness: (1+ points) When a creature hits another creature with an attack, it deals 1d6 extra damage per point spent. If you delt the damage, increase it to 1d8 damage for each point spent.
  • Direct the Strike: (3 points): When an ally takes an attack action, they can make 1 additional attack against the same target.
  • Skirmish: (1-5 points) When a creature is hit by an opportunity attack, they gain a bonus to AC against the attack equal to your twice the number of points you spent, potentially changing the results.
  • First Strike: (1+ points) When a creature rolls initiative, you can Opportunity bonus equal to the number of points spent.
  • Sacrificial Opportunity: (1+ points) When a creature would make a melee attack against you, you can be automatically be hit in order to have it provoke an opportunity attack from one creature adjacent to it, excluding yourself. Reduce the damage you take by a 1d6 for each point spent.
  • Drive the Point: (1+ points) When a creature makes with an attack, you can spend a tactical point to increase the roll of the d20 by 1 for each point spent, up to a maximum of 20. Potentially turn a miss into a hit or a hit into a crit.
    [*]Reinforce Mind: (2+ points) When a creature makes a Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma saving throw, they gain a bonus to the save equal to half the number of points spent.
    [*]No Gambit Wasted: (1+ points) You can see when an effect will fail, and stop your ally from wasting their effort. When a creature cast a spell or uses another resource, and fails against all the targets, you can spend a number of points equal to the spell level or feature level (fighters get action surge at level 2, so it cost 2 points) to stop them before they spend it. The target effectivly wastes their action to do nothing instead.


Multi-classing: 13 Int, 13 Cha. You gain proficiency in either Intelligence of Charisma saving throws.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I don't think it's necessary to limit the design options of all "martial" classes for the sole purpose of defining martial as being less complex. There can always be an exception, "most martial classes are not very complex but the warlord is". Having an exception is not a bait and switch.
You're right, of course. It is nothing more than simple prejudice to believe that everyone wanting to play a non-supernatural character is necessarily looking for simplistic mechanics and not interested in exercising system mastery or player agency.

The popularity of the fighter has held steady through all editions, from the bone-simple fighting man, to the high-damage TWFing weapon-specialist, to the complex builds of 3.x, to the 4e 'defender' with more powers than any other class, to the backlash of Essentials ushering in the simplified 'striker' Slayer sub-class, through to 5e offering an even simpler more DPR-specialized Champion and the nominally more complex BM.

It's the relatable, genre-appropriate concept of the hero, fighting bravely without any supernatural powers of his own to aid him, that is popular, not the varied and often inadequate mechanics that D&D has used to model it.

The BM does not go nearly far enough in allowing anyone wanting to play a non-magical concept to still play a choice-rich, mechanically engaging character. The Warlord is free of the expectations surrounding the fighter of past editions, so can afford to be at least as 'complex' as it was in 4e - preferably as flexible and potentially high-contributing as the extant 5e support classes.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
I've never once been in a party where the highest damage character did 1d8+mod damage per attack. Have you?

I do have a point here if you start being reasonable about what the least-highest single attack character you normally see in a party is.

Yes I have our party has one right now.

Paladin (sword and board, devotion)
Rogue (thief)
Arcana Cleric
Warlock (hexblade, sword and board)

Paladin uses a +2 spear so his base damage is a 1d6+8 I think (duelist, 18 strength +2 spear). The thief uses a +1 dagger. Said spear also gives resistance to lightning. Before they found the weapons they were doing 1d8+ mod damage (+ duelist).
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Yes I have our party has one right now.

Paladin (sword and board, devotion)
Rogue (thief)
Arcana Cleric
Warlock (hexblade, sword and board)

Paladin uses a +2 spear so his base damage is a 1d6+8 I think (duelist, 18 strength +2 spear). The thief uses a +1 dagger. Said spear also gives resistance to lightning. Before they found the weapons they were doing 1d8+ mod damage (+ duelist).

1. Even then it's not 1d8 + mod. If you are willing to add duelist in then I am willing to drop to 1d8. Can we agree there?
2. The warlock hexblade likely uses hex to do an extra 1d6 or some other buff spell to add advantage to his attacks?

So right there in your group you have 2 characters each doing very very close to 2d6 + mod.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Would it be helpful for warlord class adoption if his primary ability was structured in such a way that your allies opted in to be helped by you?

Something like: Choose 1 each of the following offensive, defensive and tactical abilities. Once per turn you may choose to help your allies that can see or hear you either offensively, defensively or tactically. On your turn choose offensive, defensive or tactical aid. Any ally that can see or hear you may choose to gain whatever benefit your ability provides on their turn. Once this is done then no other ally can benefit from this ability until your next turn.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Would it be helpful for warlord class adoption if his primary ability was structured in such a way that your allies opted in to be helped by you?
It'd be a good idea for any buff to an ally to be clearly opt-in, especially action-grants. There might be exceptions, like granting a save, that should be useable to snap a charmed ally out if it, for instance.
 

It'd be a good idea for any buff to an ally to be clearly opt-in, especially action-grants. There might be exceptions, like granting a save, that should be useable to snap a charmed ally out if it, for instance.
That's a good catch. My aiding maneuvers require a willing ally, so are already opt-in, but I had not considered a charm or mind-control situation.
 

mellored

Legend
Also here is the Marshal, which is my attempt to be a bit more lazylord. Uncertain if I want Reposition to be at-will or recharge with initiative or after short rest.
Direct Assault is totally an at-will attack granter. But, it does require that reaction. And as it's an action, it's replacing two attacks from the PC.
To enable the lazy lord better I suggest replacing multi-attack with...

Tactical Multi-Attack: When you or a friendly creature takes the attack action, they can make one additional attack as part of that same action. You can use this feature once per round.

Also, I feel overwhelming assault should be "when a friendly creature deals damage to the target..." so you can include sacred flame and fireball.

Also Also, I still like the select-a-power better than hard-coded powers. It allows for future more tactical flexibility and customization.
Though, I'll steal a few of your powers.
 

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