D&D 5E Quick Unarmed Strike question

Cap'n Kobold · Sep 28, 2019

Part of it might be due to unarmed strike being considered an attack with the body overall, (which could include kicking, headbutting etc) so the concept of an off-hand attack just isn't relevant, rather than a specific fist (which would imply the ability to attack with the other fist as you say.)

Since Unarmed strike isn't reliant on having a hand free, there would need to be some justification for why everyone doesn't always get that extra attack in combat.
I'm generally OK with the rules as they are: I view trying to attack an armed opponent with an unarmed attack is hard enough that there are less openings available despite the number of body parts you are bringing to bear. I'd probably allow someone with the TWF feat to make an additional unarmed strike as a bonus action perhaps.

Remember that PCs are assumed to be individuals with a broad range of capabilities and skills. They know how to punch just as they know how to throw a knife, which is also a fairly rare skill.

DND_Reborn · Sep 28, 2019

Well, I am glad (I suppose) to learn that I haven't missed anything as far as errata, tweets, etc. Actually, we already house-rule Unarmed Attacks are Light because, well, it makes sense, and I was curious if I was missing anything.

Thanks all for your POVs.

Grapple and TWF: Won't work IMO. Grapple uses the "special attack: a grapple" and is not an attack with a light melee weapon. That being said, I don't think there is anything wrong with using unarmed strikes on a grappled target and using your bonus action to make a second TWF unarmed strike. A simple example would be a character who is grappled (holding onto) the arm of their target, then makes a punch with their free hand and maybe a side kick (TWF bonus action?).

Now, comparing this to the Martial Arts feature of Monks. There are some important differences as I see it. A Monk can use STR or DEX for attack rolls and damage, others would be limited to STR only. Also, a monk using their bonus action for an unarmed strike gets to add their ability modifier to damage on the bonus action attack as well as the regular attack action.

FYI, we also house-ruled monk martial arts damage. We have damage start at d6, and increase it one die type when your proficiency bonus increases (max d20 at 17+ level). What can I say, I like monks from 1E and the higher damage they did.

Anyway, I'll give it all more thought.

Charlaquin · Sep 28, 2019

GlassJaw said:
For everything that 5E did right, one of my biggest pet peeves is that the designers didn't learn from the mistakes of 3ed and clean up the "unarmed strike" once and for all.

There has been numerous discussions, questions, errata, Sage Advice, tweets, etc on the differences between a weapon attack, an unarmed strike, a natural attack, a natural weapon, etc. Ugh it drives me nuts.

The RAW has required many clarifications, and that hasn't fully dispelled the confusion. I've done a lot of reading and my understanding is that an unarmed strike isn't actually a melee weapon at all, but you can make an unarmed strike with an melee attack. It isn't Light or Finesse. It also isn't a natural weapon. It's literally its own category. It's maddening.

There is no doubt that unarmed fighting could greatly benefit from some expanded rules but my gut says that the designers didn't have the stomach for it, nor did they think it was important.

I'm firmly in the camp that believes you should be able to make an offhand attack with an unarmed strike. I'm also ok with making it Light and Finesse. I don't think anyone would argue that Dex would help you land unarmed strikes. Whether you should be able to add it to damage could be debated but again, it only does a base 1 point of damage so I don't think it's going to compete with normal weapons.

If that's a concern, it's easy enough to create a "Martial Artist" feat that grants the Light and Finesse properties to unarmed strikes, or even a Fighting Style that does the same.

I love the big, burly, unarmed Pit Fighter/Wrestler archetype but D&D in pretty every incarnation of its rules hasn't supported it, or at least not without much difficulty. What if I want to punch people but not be a monk?

I think you’re overthinking it.

Every single attack falls into one of four categories:
1. Melee weapon attack
2. Ranged weapon attack
3. Melee spell attack
4. Ranged spell attack.

An unarmed strike is not a weapon. It is a special melee weapon attack that you can make without a weapon. Just like a wolf’s Bite attack is a melee weapon attack that a wolf can make without a weapon. If you want to call them both “natural weapons,” you could do that, although “natural weapon” is not a rules term in 5e like it has been in some other editions of D&D. Both are simply attacks that the creatures can make, and the category they fall under for the purpose of any rules that care about such things is “melee weapon attack.” So, like, you can’t use an unarmed strike as the material component of Booming Blade, but if you have a special feature that enhances your melee weapon attacks, unarmed strike is one.

Fenris-77 · Sep 28, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
It doesn't? The entry to the bonus action is an attack with a light weapon. Using your attack for a grapple makes it a special attack, not an attack with a light weapon. Same problem exists for the bonus action: you get an attack with a light weapon, not a special attack grapple.

Of course, you're welcome to rule differentky.

I think we're speaking at cross purposes. I am fully aware of how the TWF BA works, RAW. My point was that the main fallout of making unarmed strikes also eligible for that BA is that it would add a grapple attack to grapple builds, which they currently do not. Adding the extra punch is more work than it's worth for most builds. The 1 HP slap isn't useful generally., other than maybe for getting sneak attack of whatnot off in the case of builds who leave a hand free anyway.

DND_Reborn · Sep 28, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
I think we're speaking at cross purposes. I am fully aware of how the TWF BA works, RAW. My point was that the main fallout of making unarmed strikes also eligible for that BA is that it would add a grapple attack to grapple builds, which they currently do not. Adding the extra punch is more work than it's worth for most builds. The 1 HP slap isn't useful generally., other than maybe for getting sneak attack of whatnot off in the case of builds who leave a hand free anyway.

Ok, just so I understand your point, your statement (bolded for emphasis) is not in relation to RAW, correct? You are mentioning it for how some tables might rule it?

Ovinomancer · Sep 28, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
I think we're speaking at cross purposes. I am fully aware of how the TWF BA works, RAW. My point was that the main fallout of making unarmed strikes also eligible for that BA is that it would add a grapple attack to grapple builds, which they currently do not. Adding the extra punch is more work than it's worth for most builds. The 1 HP slap isn't useful generally., other than maybe for getting sneak attack of whatnot off in the case of builds who leave a hand free anyway.

I'm confused. Given what I posted, which was that you /don't/ get an extra grapple attack, how do you think it works?

Fenris-77 · Sep 28, 2019

Yeah, to be clear, we agree: the RAW does not allow an additional unarmed strike as part of TWF. Someone upstream was wondering why that's the case, which I think is a fair question given how low key that additional 1 point of damage is and how much sense the idea makes set next to other parts of the rules. The buff to grapple builds based on allowing that extra grapple attempt keyed off the BA unarmed strike was the best reason I could think if that it wasn't allowed.

Ovinomancer · Sep 28, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
Yeah, to be clear, we agree: the RAW does not allow an additional unarmed strike as part of TWF. Someone upstream was wondering why that's the case, which I think is a fair question given how low key that additional 1 point of damage is and how much sense the idea makes set next to other parts of the rules. The buff to grapple builds based on allowing that extra grapple attempt keyed off the BA unarmed strike was the best reason I could think if that it wasn't allowed.

Yeah, but you can't use the BA to grapple. That's not a swappable attack, it's required to be a light weapon.

Fenris-77 · Sep 28, 2019

Yes, I know. I'm not suggesting that it does. I'm not sure what the confusion is.

Ovinomancer · Sep 28, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
Yes, I know. I'm not suggesting that it does. I'm not sure what the confusion is.

That there's a buff to grapple builds if you count unarmed strikes as light weapons. There isn't. You keep saying there is.

D&D 5E Quick Unarmed Strike question

Cap'n Kobold

Hero

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!

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