First off, this isn't a valid comparison, because it's far easier to explain a story than it is to explain an RPG setting, unless the setting has really massive and obvious hooks. I mean, if I tried to describe the Forgotten Realms or Planescape - I mean particularly Planescape - they're probably going to be either incomprehensible, or sound totally rubbish. The problem Greyhawk has is that in the vaguest terms, it's just "the AD&D setting" - a lot about AD&D/D&D just derives from elements of it - but a lot of that is stuff that's been lost, minimized, or shoved aside by more modern tropes. The blasted very points-of-light world (which only 4E even sort of did), the mercenary nature of a lot of the adventurers there, the focus more on neutrality and survival than good against evil and so on.
Settings have history. History is literally stories.
And people sell settings all the time.
Additionally, your second point here that Greyhawk is "just the AD&D setting" seems to imply that there is nothing to sell people on.
Second off, you're proving my point re: compelling to one person not meaning easy to describe, because that would definitely not sell me on it, and it sounds a bit like sort of stuff anime fans generically overhype about anime. Yet I suspect because you're even discussing it, it actually is pretty good! (Though I do see maid outfits in one picture of it which makes me narrow my eyes because to me they're an "Anime Red Flag". I've had enough of anime that makes to like somewhere between episode 2 and 6 before it's like "SURPRISE! I'M FOR PERVS!!!" - not suggesting this but maid outfits hmmmm)
See, but you missed my point.
My point wasn't that I could sell you on it. Not everything appeals to everyone.
My point was I could
try even without any references to anime tropes. It wasn't just "well, if you haven't seen enough anime I can't explain it to you." Which is something that people were telling me about Greyhawk. They were saying "If you haven't read Conan or Lieber, I can't explain Greyhawk to you." That was the point I was contesting.
Tangent: There is "fan-service" in the show, but the older of the two maid sisters had one of the most compelling characters arcs I've seen in a while. They were starving orphans, stealing to survive, and the Head Maid hated them, calling them bugs because they didn't have enough will to live under their own power.
Then towards the end (while in disguise) the sister makes a big speech, calling on everything the Head Maid taught her, and basically screaming her defiance to the world. It was really powerful in context.
And you seem to think someone needs to have read a lot of Sword and Sorcery to like Greyhawk? Nah. That's a misunderstanding. You need to know what Sword and Sorcery is to have Greyhawk properly described to you in like, less than 2000 well-crafted words. This is how culture works, mate. People share stories and ideas and use them as shorthand, as shared understand. You seem to be rejecting culture. I mean, good luck if you get stuck on a planet with a Tamarian! People have tried, bravely, to describe it, but without also having that hard-to-define S&S vibe, I don't think you're going to get the full picture.
Wut?
How have I gone from "Are you really saying it is impossible to describe this setting to me without having read these books" to "I am rejecting the very concept of culture?"
But you know, Tamarians like Starfire are a great example of what I am talking about. Wanna know why? Because people do end up explaining things to her. Lacking the culture context isn't some impossible to scale hurdle. I should know, I've had to explain things like D&D or Anime Shows to people who lack a lot of context for what the heck is going on.
For example, if I wanted to explain to you why My Hero Academia is so revolutionary and cool, I need to explain The Big Three (Naruto, Bleach, One Piece) and how they relate to Dragonball and Dragonball Z and how that was a response to shows like Fist of the North Star.
That is a lot of context, but I've done it, repeatedly, for people who have no anime experience at all.
I'm not rejecting the idea of culture. I understand what cultural shorthand is.
The other major difference is that Forgotten Realms has an expectation that you will make a "good" character. After all, the major characters of the setting are all pretty good. Dr'zzt, Elminster, Laeral Silverhand, Sir Isteval, Minsc... these are all heroes with big roles in the world, with entire series of novels, and are all unambiguously good heroes (though they have other flaws). These heroes all lived, and have a big role in the politics and history of the Sword Coast.
I guess I can understand that all the "famous" people are good (Though, I thought Minsc was crazy and I've never even heard the name Sir Isteval before)
But... Seriously. I've been in about four or five different campaigns set in the Realms. I'm the only one who plays a good character. I don't know what expectation exists for other people, but no one I know would say that a Realms character is supposed to be "Good"
Now, I'm sure you can read the above and say, "Well, I can adapt a gritty, low-magic, morally-grey world to Forgotten Realms, or Eberron, or even Ravnica if I try." And that's true, you can. You can bring any tone or theme to any campaign setting if you try. But the strength of Greyhawk is that by default, your level 1 PCs are not chosen heroes, but are likely just a group of normal (but skilled) individuals trying to find a way to survive in a world that cares little for the affairs of the peasant life. Now, if the PCs are able to survive long enough, they may just be able to learn and gain enough strength to try and make a positive change in this grim world.
And I think that's the difference in FR and GH in a nutshell. In FR, you're largely trying to protect the peace; Waterdeep, Phandalin, most of the Sword Coast (with the notable exception of Baldur's Gate) is a nice place; it deserves to be saved from Tiamat or the Demon Lords. But in GH, it is mostly a terrible place for most people; if you're a good character, you have to go out and change the systemic system of how the world operates to truly make it a decent place.
But this makes sense.
I fully agree with you that FR is a place where you are trying to protect the peace. That matches with my experience completely "Things are okay, bad guy comes in to make it worse, we need to stop them" that happens all the time.
But, I guess there is no good status quo to protect in Greyhawk? Most places people are little more than slaves to their lords and ladies and there is nothing to look forward to except dreary survival into the next day?
I can't say it sounds like fun, but I guess it sounds unique.
It is the nearly invincible nemesis Iuz a half god like demon with his own priesthood and an army consisting of hordes of orcs and bandits bolstered by demons which makes the setting very feasible for a "last war between good and evil before the apocalypse" scenario. This is doubled down by the "PCs are more selfish mercenaries than notorious do-goods", aka more like Han Solo than Luke Skywalker.
How can they be motivated to pick the right side, what mundane and political interests interfere with their mission etc.
See, this sounds epic. I'd be tempted to run something focused on fighting an evil that entrenched.
Ignorance of the giants of the fantasy genre may not be the most sensible argument to make. I read my father’s copies of Elric of Melnibone when I was a young teen. I’m glad that I did because it was eye-opening when it came to the fantasy genre.
Elric had a tremendous influence on popular fantasy. It’s probably more difficult to not encounter it. You can see his influence in Geralt (The Witcher), Arthas the Lich King (World of Warcraft), the Targaryens (Game of Thrones), Warhammer, D&D’s alignment system (Chaos vs. Law), and also giving his nickname “the White Wolf” to both Geralt and White Wolf Publishing.
Elric definitely does not feel like Forgotten Realms on a tonal level.
I'm sorry my father only had Narnia, Xanth, Piers Anthony's Immortals I thing it was called (
On a Pale Horse and such) and the very first book of the Sword of Truth.
If I actually liked the man I might go and demand he had provided me with novels I had never heard of.
Heck, I only read the Lord of the Rings because of my school library. And I only heard of Moorcock and Elric when I started posting on these forums.
You have stated that you haven't read any of the literary antecedents that people describe to you, and have no desire to. So when people try to describe things to you, you not only have no foundation of knowledge, you don't want to, and seem to think that's okay. (I disagree).
I'm sorry that you disagree, but I'm not going to drop everything in my life and hunt down yet another "you must read this" Fantasy series just so I can understand why Greyhawk is worth saving.
I mean, quick and dirty Google, there are six Elric Novels? With my current schedule and life, if I didn't drop anything that is a month and a half, if I can find them all? How many Conan novels should I read? Wikipedia tells me there are about 20 of them?
Your call of "You must educate yourself before you speak at this council" is bull, in my opinion. Because if this is what it takes to even discuss if Greyhawk should be published... Then it isn't.
I'm glad that some people are actually trying to have a discussion and help me understand the setting, but getting bashed for being ignorant and being told I'm unwilling to learn enough classic fantasy to even comprehend the glory of the setting, comes across as self-entitled.
You have stated that you don't want to investigate this on your own, despite there being numerous resources (many of which are more interesting than just wikipedia). Instead, you keep demanding that people explain things to you that you can disagree with.
Even if I found something that gave me a detailed account of Greyhawk, would that explain why people love it? Sure, I could find books and pore over them for hours to learn everything there is to know about Greyhawk... But no one has given me any reason to care enough to devote that much time and effort.
Why do I care enough to research it? Because some people love it and want it to come back? Great for them, but when I go to them and ask what is so great about it I get handed a small library and told to go educate myself. Sorry, that sounds like a boring setting. I'd much rather explore the setting with people actually willing to talk about their setting and why they love it.
You have stated that "tone" and such doesn't matter in any settings, because you can run what you want in any setting. You previously wrote that you can run super gritty games in Eberron and Ravnica, so it would seem that you don't really think that setting matters. Which would be odd, because if it doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter for any setting.
When people explain lore to you (things that they like), you argue against whatever the lore is that they provide. It's either, "Oh, all settings have that," or it's "What, how dare a setting have that!" (like in the Free City example
I'm not trying to say tone doesn't matter. I'm trying to say that, as I understand it, other settings have multiple tones. The Eberron game I am in where we are fighting against a psychic police state that wants to enslave us in a very different tone than one set in the "Wild West Swamps" of Q'Barra prospecting for shards and seeking to turn our little encampment into a real town.
Same setting, different tone.
But with Greyhawk all I've been getting is "It is dreary and oppresssive, and no one is actually good, they are all in it for selfish reasons." Which... yeah, that's fine. I'm used to that game. But that is my experience with the Realms. It just is, sorry that the tables I've played at haven't played the Realms "properly" I guess.
And, I guess for your "how dare they" point, you are referring to my reticence about every common man in the entirety of the setting, except for the one city, is an oppressed serf bound the the land with no hope of anything except table scraps from the powerful?
In the entire setting?
I'm not saying you can't do that, I just think that makes running the game kind of difficult. It sounds like the very idea of a merchant class is brand-new to the setting, so you either have the Lord and his men, or the oppressed masses. Which one do you want your character to be from, because most equipment lists would say you were wealthy enough, you had to be working for the nobility.
Or, maybe I misunderstood. After all, I was asking a question. Trying to figure out if this idea had spread over the last few hundred years, giving a more balanced approach to the setting where it isn't unheard of for a merchant class to exist in an area, or if this is a radical new idea. Which is way harder to run, since it is an old idea to us, and trying to treat it as new and imagine a world where it isn't even a dream for most people would be challenging in the extreme.
But, reading more of your posts, you just seem to want to feel persecuted... so, I guess I'm your bogeyman.
