ZEITGEIST Zeitvice: one GM's guide to the best AP

You did not interpret Nic on book 7 in the same way I did. Throughout the adventure I get the impression he is playing at being an impartial mediator, first among equals yet all the way though it the steel behind the Velvet glove is always there. He knows that there are a bunch of people here who do not share his ideal's and will cause him problems later so in order to make the Omellette he has spent 500 years preparing his is going to break a bunch of eggs. From the very start of the convocation he knows that the final vote will indeed be Final for those are on the wrong side of history. Hitler and Stalin could be charming and freindly just before having you and your entire family killed, that is our freind Nic. At heart he is a ruthless bastard willing to sacriice as many lives as necessarry to make a better world.
As he has reverses and betrayals in later books he gets worse and more obvious but right from the start lives mean nothing to hin , in book 2 he uses a courier to deliver a message to Macbennin and has him killed once the message is delivered over a minor security risk. Four Yerasols wars and all their blood is necessary for progress. He is never the disinterested kindly uncle always the scheming and ruthless immortal driven and dedicated man who is willing to get his hands dirty for the 'greater good' and once he really meant that , now the greater good is whatever he thinks it is and anyone who disagrees with him is a reactionary plotter who must be purged

arkwright, with an immense respect to you and your work on Zeitvice and general contributions to these forums (and even more regarding upcoming ZG setting book)... I find it extremely ironic that this is not the first time I see you debating that your point of view on the campaign (and Nicodemus in particular) is objectively right, even arguing with RangerWickett (cue "death of the author"). Nicodemus would definitely do the same. I wonder if there's a way to get him into a direct conversation with Triegenis somehow...

Andrew, I'm happy to agree with you; Nic was planning to kill the Colossal Congress voters/greedy voters from the beginning, and it was a significant part of why the convocation was called. My dissent is more over what comes next- what it is that drives Nic to institute MAP, and how that is or isn't conveyed to the players.

Well hirou, you're right, that is the ironic magic of death of the author. I cannot argue over Nicodemus-as-envisioned-or-planned by Ranger, but I can argue over Nicodemus-as-laid-out-in-the-text-of-the-work by Ranger. I can argue what for what I consider to be a strong interpretation of the text, and likely player reactions. I definitely can't argue for 'objectively right', though, that's too high a standard to reach. (I know you meant all that in jest, forgive me the serious answer).

I'd hope that Ranger finds me flattering rather than frustrating; I definitely can't remember everything about work I did 8+ years back, he is doing much better than me.

arkwright said:

I'd hope that Ranger finds me flattering rather than frustrating

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Yes, certainly. I love the discussion, and it really does hearten me to see people invested in trying to improve upon something I made. I would never begrudge someone pointing out ways a story could be better, or else I would owe Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams a bunch of apologies.

I do believe it is far more flattering to him than the dude on reddit who thought Zeitgeist was inspired by Jordan Peterson's philosophies.

Again, small thoughts, but I do think that the very nature of the interconnectedness of the ZG plot (in contrast to the WotBS one, which I found to be so robust that it was almost impossible to destroy) is far more delicate and in times more rail-roady in the assumed outcome. Which makes it harder for not-super-relaxed/experienced/experimental DMs to diverge from the original plot while still managing to stay on a parallel track. (Man, I do want to DM this campaign with crazy players some time. It would be just the right challenge )

Also, we actually did avert MAP as our communal vote in adventure 7 and employed our very own plan, even if the end results was the same as the MAP outcome because... they screwed up the ritual (Our DM had to do something about it as our plan would have kept the planar barrier intact). But yes, a re-recording would benefit from offering a variety of planar outcomes depending on the player's choices.

I ended with a modified MAP including Apet as the winner of the vote but because the vote had been sabotaged by oppressive reactionary agents of the conservative forces of the world Nic returned to the purity of his vision (He had a dragon and 5 constables voting on things which meant they had ulterior motives to weaken the brilliance of MAP)

The interconnectedness/subtle mechanics behind the plot can be pretty daunting. There are a few moments, small and large, where you can feel the requirements of the plot as a leash around a character's neck; like when Kasvarina is dangling off the side of the Lance of Triegenes and rather than help her or flee down the stairs, Nicodemus jumps into a portal for little reason other than because he needs to in order to explain his ghost transformation.

Despite all of my Zeitvice, I honestly don't know if I as a GM would be capable of running a Zeitgeist that was more ambitious in reworking the plot. It's more my style to try and run a version that conveys the work 'authentically', for better or worse, with a few patches here and there.

I agree that trying to run a very divergent campaign and keeping the feel would be very hard. Also a lot of work, the reason I tend to run purchased campaigns now days is that I find it hard to get the time to write a campaign. I think judging by what I have read of your campaign Arkwright I make an effort to stick closer to the campaign as written. The only time I have felt I am railroading the pc's(except when actual railroads were involved) was preventing them from making a deal with the Ob after the Great Eclipse which is why I advocate giving Nic more evidence of the pc'sinvolvment so his unreasonableness seems more reasonable to the players

I have really appreciated the discussion and different opinions here as I prepare for a Zeitgeist campaign next year. Thanks, everyone.

Is there a Pathfinder 2 Zeitgeist? (Or plans for one?)

Even if not, is there a PF2-specific set of "Zeitvice" to be had?