D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

Crimson Longinus said:

What? Certainly is makes perfect sense for people's abilities to improve over time, especially in heroic fantasy where the whole point is that they get better as they gain experience.

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Three reasons why I prefer to avoid level-based stat bumps, in descending order of importance:
1. I like feats. Having them compete with ASIs makes my PCs less likely to choose a feat over a direct mathematical advantage.
2. I'm tired of everybody 's stats being so darn high. My group rolls, which in practice means people end up with high stats where they want them, plus the racial ASI. It just gets worse from there.
3. I grew up in the TSR era of D&D, and short of outliers like the 1e cavalier, what you started with stat-wise was what you got, short of magic. None of us felt deprived, and frankly I still don't.

TwoSix said:

Plus considering how popular progression fantasy has gotten as a genre over the last few years, especially among Gen Z.

Besides, in a fantasy game leveling IS magic, or at the very least preternatural.

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I don't concern myself with the popularity of fantasy trends in Gen Z, although I certainly understand how others might.

Scribe said:

It's an interesting idea though. Not allowing upgrades to stats after creation.

Would need more magic items perhaps, but it would be a lever for customization.

Will have to think on it.

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More magic items is how you handle it, yes. I like magic items too.

Micah Sweet said:

More magic items is how you handle it, yes. I like magic items too.

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Me too. Big time.

Scribe said:

It's an interesting idea though. Not allowing upgrades to stats after creation.

Would need more magic items perhaps, but it would be a lever for customization.

Will have to think on it.

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I'm conflicted. On one hand I liked stat increases being meaningful like there were in 1e and 2e. On the other hand I played with a lot of DMs who thought such increases should be so rare as to effectively not exist.

Crimson Longinus said:

What? Certainly is makes perfect sense for people's abilities to improve over time, especially in heroic fantasy where the whole point is that they get better as they gain experience.

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There are lots of things that don't make any sense that make the game better, and lots of things that make sense that make the game work. I prefer to start with good rules and then rationalize them, rather than try to model reality.

We can still argue about whether or not increasing your stats is a good game mechanic, I'm just saying that I don't really care whether or not it "makes" sense.

And the reason I don't like them is that it contributes to attribute homogeneity.

Micah Sweet said:

More magic items is how you handle it, yes. I like magic items too.

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I really don't. I mean I don't have anything against them per se, but to me it always feels far more satisfying to have the power come from the character directly, rather than from the toys they happen to have. So I'd definitely take stat increases over magic items any day. Conan never needed a magic sword!

Maxperson said:

I'm conflicted. On one hand I liked stat increases being meaningful like there were in 1e and 2e. On the other hand I played with a lot of DMs who thought such increases should be so rare as to effectively not exist.

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They were not more meaningful in 1e and 2e.

As noted above, higher or lower ability scores gave you lower bonuses overall, and were only really meaningful at the top and bottom ends. The ability score modifications for most races would likely not register as significant for the purposes of calculating modifiers. Second, ability scores were much less important to the game overall; two of the most common rolls, attacks and saving throws, got better primarily via your class and were not linked to ability scores in general. Very particular skills, like opening stuck doors, got better with higher ability scores, but in many cases that wasn't so dramatic either (an 18 Str gives you a 16% to bend bars/lift gates). For races, meaningful differences came from ability caps, level restrictions, and class restrictions.





In 3e and 5e (haven't played 4e) an ability score bonus (from any source) is more impactful because the bonus was not tied to a bell curve, meaning that any +2 bonus gives you a flat +5% chance. This is especially true with bounded accuracy, which is why abilities are capped at 20. Further, everything is tied to ability scores, including attacks, saves, initiative, armor class, hit points. If you really wanted to make a race more distinctive over the length of the game, a better way would probably be to raise the cap on their signature ability stat.

*edit: sorry, missed that you were discussing magic items in particular, although the point about stats being less impactful stands

Malmuria said:

They were not more meaningful in 1e and 2e.

As noted above, higher or lower ability scores gave you lower bonuses overall, and were only really meaningful at the top and bottom ends. The ability score modifications for most races would likely not register as significant for the purposes of calculating modifiers. Second, ability scores were much less important to the game overall; two of the most common rolls, attacks and saving throws, got better primarily via your class and were not linked to ability scores in general. Very particular skills, like opening stuck doors, got better with higher ability scores, but in many cases that wasn't so dramatic either (an 18 Str gives you a 16% to bend bars/lift gates). For races, meaningful differences came from ability caps, level restrictions, and class restrictions.

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In 3e and 5e (haven't played 4e) an ability score bonus (from any source) is more impactful because the bonus was not tied to a bell curve, meaning that any +2 bonus gives you a flat +5% chance. This is especially true with bounded accuracy, which is why abilities are capped at 20. Further, everything is tied to ability scores, including attacks, saves, initiative, armor class, hit points. If you really wanted to make a race more distinctive over the length of the game, a better way would probably be to raise the cap on their signature ability stat.

*edit: sorry, missed that you were discussing magic items in particular, although the point about stats being less impactful stands

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Quite true. The fact that stats weren't the most mechanically relevant part of your character was a big part of why not having level-based ASIs worked.

S

Crimson Longinus said:

I really don't. I mean I don't have nothing against them per se, but to me it always feels far more satisfying to have the power come from the character directly, rather than from the toys they happen to have. So I'd definitely take stat increases over magic items any day. Conan never needed a magic sword!

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See, a lot of great heroes and villains in literature place great narrative stock in their gear, and it becomes part of their identity. That's the kind of magic item I'm talking about here. I dont want an undifferentiated +1 sword any more than you do. I want Anduril, Flame of the West.