D&D 5E Bards Should Be Half-Casters in 5.5e/6e

Tallifer

Hero
Myself I love the present Bard: it allows me and my players to enjoy the merry troubadour whose music moves the gods themselves. I think of Orpheus, the Pied Piper or the Music Man.
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(For more D&D art, see my webcomic: Tales from the Gnomish Tarot )
 

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This is not the way. It may be the end but it is not the way. You don't start your long pitch by saying "Make the Bard a half caster", you start it by saying "If we give the bard these really cool things they are cool and powerful enough that they don't need to be a full caster". Starting out "We should nerf the bard" (which is what your title says in practice) is just going to put people off.

The conceptual problem with half casters is the action economy. Even if you can do everything you can only do one thing at any one time meaning that either they are a half-assed fighter, an inept spellcaster, or possibly a third rate rogue. If we look at the PHB half-casters they get round this by behaving as pretty much full fighters as far as the action economy is concerned. The ranger and the paladin alike have the fighter's fighting style and extra attack - and the paladin even gets to hack the action economy with their smites, burning spell slots for extra damage.

The artificer gets away with this because they come with a collection of permanent buffs that do not burn their action economy in the form of infusions. Oh, and their subclasses are excellent. The Battlesmith and the Armourer are both fighter tier combatants and the artillerist either gets free attacks to put them onto fighter tier or hands out superb AoE buffs. And the alchemist

If we look at the historical record of half-casting bards it's been ... mixed. And what has worked probably can't be repeated.
  • The 2e bard hacked the XP system and levelled up at thief speed not mage speed. They therefore had more hit points than mages, could wear armour, could wield weapons, and were almost as good at casting as a mage. They traded low level power for high level power. This is not an approach that could work here due to harmonised XP systems.
  • The 3.0 bard was a punchline. Good at nothing and could only do one thing at once. Never do this again.
  • The 3.5 bard took some skill to make work, but had two things going for them.
    • Inspire Courage was technically limited by neither duration nor number of targets as long as they could hear you. Yes, there's endurance - but with a couple of buffs (a spell, a feat, and an item) a call and response military cadence could turn a party into a blending machine that hit a dungeon like a buzz-saw and last for hours while alternatively the Alphorn had a range measured in miles for an entire battle.
    • The bard spell list was heavily hacked with the bard getting broken unique spells like glibness, and getting spells from Tasha's Hideous Laughter to Otto's Irresistible Dance early, so within their niche of enchanters and illusionists they could out-cast sorcerers. 5e threw out the idea of spells being different levels for different classes
  • The Pathfinder bard managed to break the 3.5 bard although it did remain better than the 3.0 bard
    • With a limited number of rounds per day and no "for five rounds after they stop hearing you" the long duration party buff aspect of Inspire Courage vanished. It just became a decent-ish spell
    • It lost most of the splatbook stuff bards could get - and that was never replaced
    • The sorcerer got significantly better (which to be fair it needed to)
So that's just 2e and 3.5 not falling a long long way behind the full casters and the way 2e did it can not be repeated.

What are you offering that isn't just trying to gut the class?
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
When people know Merlin is a bard, they get it.
No offense, but I've seen people claim that Merlin is everything from a Wizard, to an infernal Sorcerer/Cambion, Warlock, Druid, and Bard.

I've heard all of those and the arguments for them, but I still don't "get it"/agree with that claim. I think that Merlin is a character from a fairy tale/legend that was not told predicting everything that Bards could do in a non-existent game called Dungeons and Dragons. I also don't think that Merlin is the prime/only inspiration for the Bard class (that is, if he was even part of the inspiration for the Bard class, which I have yet to have seen), and even if he was, that doesn't mean that Bards can't be used differently in D&D.
D&D needs to avoid misusing terms of cultural heritage. If it isnt going to be a reasonably accurate bard, then dont use the word "bard". Call it "music mage", or whatever the concept is.
Big disagree. Paladins aren't historically accurate paladins (thank goodness), Warlocks aren't historically accurate Warlocks/Witches, Clerics aren't historically accurate clergy, Berserkers/Barbarians aren't historically accurate Berserkers, and Alchemists aren't historically accurate Alchemists (okay, this one, I could get behind. Alchemists would be way better and much cooler if they were related to discovering the 5th element "Aether", the Philosopher's Stone, and stuff like that).

The name "Music Mage" would certainly fit in with the names "Fighting Man" and "Magic-User", but that name wouldn't/doesn't fly in 5e ("Fighter" is still a semi-contentious name, as it's so bland. IMHO, "Warrior" or something similar would be way better). Bard works.
 
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Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
This is not the way. It may be the end but it is not the way. You don't start your long pitch by saying "Make the Bard a half caster", you start it by saying "If we give the bard these really cool things they are cool and powerful enough that they don't need to be a full caster". Starting out "We should nerf the bard" (which is what your title says in practice) is just going to put people off.
You're . . . you're missing the point. I don't know where this happened, but you missed it.

The point of turning the Bard into a half-caster (IMO), isn't to "nerf" them. Yes, they will lose the power of having high level magic. However, a bard would make up for this with lower level features. No, they wouldn't be as powerful as 9th level spells, but IMO, the point of playing a bard isn't to get 9th level spells, it's to be a singing/instrument-playing/poem-chanting, charismatic support character (largely through Bardic Inspiration). The 9th level spells just don't vibe with the theme of the bard (especially not Power Word Kill).

Furthermore, I did not start by saying "if we give the bards these really cool things, they don't need to be a full caster" or "we should nerf the bard", I started out, quite literally, by saying "Bards have a weird place in D&D (mechanically and thematically), a lot of the subclasses have too much overlap, the high level spells don't fit, the class doesn't have a unified theme, and even though it's mechanically effective, turning it into a half-caster could solve a lot of these problems".

I'm perfectly fine with you disagreeing and arguing with me, but at least be honest about my own argument, please.
The conceptual problem with half casters is the action economy. Even if you can do everything you can only do one thing at any one time meaning that either they are a half-assed fighter, an inept spellcaster, or possibly a third rate rogue. If we look at the PHB half-casters they get round this by behaving as pretty much full fighters as far as the action economy is concerned. The ranger and the paladin alike have the fighter's fighting style and extra attack - and the paladin even gets to hack the action economy with their smites, burning spell slots for extra damage.


The artificer gets away with this because they come with a collection of permanent buffs that do not burn their action economy in the form of infusions. Oh, and their subclasses are excellent. The Battlesmith and the Armourer are both fighter tier combatants and the artillerist either gets free attacks to put them onto fighter tier or hands out superb AoE buffs. And the alchemist
. . . I disagree. How do Half-Casters have worse action economy than Full-Casters or Non-Casters? That assertion doesn't have any evidence to back it up, and is fully inaccurate (Paladins don't have an action economy issue when they cast one of their many bonus action spells and/or use Divine Smite, Rangers just have to use their bonus action spells and attack as an action, neither or which are action economy issues).

Artificers even avoid this further by having the ability to get mechanical servants that they can command as a bonus action (Homunculus Servant, Steel Defender, Eldritch Cannons). There's absolutely no reason why turning Bards into half casters would suddenly open up a ton of action-economy issues that they currently avoid. Bardic Inspiration is a bonus action, and most of their good buffing/debuffing spells are actions (the College of Creation further avoids the issue of action economy by being allowed to command their Dancing Item and give out a Bardic Inspiration as part of the same bonus action).

The argument that bards shouldn't become half casters because half casters have action economy problems and that there would be no way to avoid this as a Half-Caster Bard class even though you say a ton of reasons why Artificers also largely avoid the issue of action economy is . . . completely inaccurate and disingenuous.
Yeah, I don't see how any of this is relevant in any way. Previous editions did bards differently, and 5e handles Casters/Half-Casters way differently from the editions you're referring to. This . . . is just completely irrelevant to the argument, and seems like a red herring to me.
What are you offering that isn't just trying to gut the class?
Um . . . how about you read and address the OP to figure it out. I addressed things there. Maybe that would help get your points across, instead of accusing me of trying to nerf a class, not understanding how action economy/half-casters work, and so on.

Do that, and then we'll talk.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
This is fine, but what I'm asking is if the majority, even 25% in your estimation, of the players today (especially considering the upswing of younger players) would see things differently.

Sometimes earlier editions of D&D outright misinformed players about certain things. So some players grew up with the misinformation. But players growing up with 5e have a more accurate idea of what a bard is.



The only critique that I have about the 5e concept of the Bard is, the Celtic bards used words to do magic, not musical instruments. (There were bardic families known for their music, but the magic is by words.) Norse mages never use musical instruments. The class needs to be able to be without an instrument. There should be a Bard subclass that specializes in a musical instrument, but the other subclasses no. In my games, the Bard uses the psionic power source without spell components, but still needs to speak or sing to focus ones thoughts in order to apply the profociency bonus.
 

Scribe

Legend
Sometimes earlier editions of D&D outright misinformed players about certain things. So some players grew up with the misinformation. But players growing up with 5e have a more accurate idea of what a bard is.

The only critique that I have about the 5e concept of the Bard is, the Celtic bards used words to do magic, not musical instruments. (There were bardic families known for their music, but the magic is by words.) Norse mages never use musical instruments. The class needs to be able to be without an instrument. There should be a Bard subclass that specializes in a musical instrument, but the other subclasses no. In my games, the Bard uses the psionic power source without spell components, but still needs to speak or sing to focus ones thoughts in order to apply the profociency bonus.
So, 25% of players would think 'Bard' when presented with 'Hey what Class is Merlin' or do you think it would be 10%?
 


but at higher levels they start to not fit as well (Teleportation Circle? Since when do Bards teleport? Forcecage? Regenerate/Resurrection? Prismatic Spray/Wall??? Foresight? POWER WORD KILL!?!? What the hell do any of these (or many of the others that I didn't mention in order to save space) have to do with being a bard?!?!).
OK. Let's respond to this.
  • Teleportation Circle is more a bard spell than any other class. Bards are the people to whom all doors are opened - and Teleportation Circle in specific is about going through a door someone else has made.
  • Power Word Kill - the spell about having the right word to stop someone's heart or make them lose the will to live? Yes, that's bardic magic.
  • Foresight is the sort of low key but powerful spell I would expect out of bards wearing their lorekeeper and loremaster hat more than I would any other class.
  • Prismatic Spray is leaning in to the rockstar element of being a bard - it's the light show.
  • Resurrection if you're going to allow anything to draw someone's soul back into their body a bard should be on the list. Personally I think it's too easy.
  • Regeneration is solid if you have bards as healing and high level casters. Healing is well within the bard archetype and
So yes I think that every single one of those spells does belong on the bard list if high level bards are to be a thing.

And that's only scratching the surface of the issue. What role do bards fill in the game? They're primarily support characters, but a lot of the time they're not supporting through their spells (their spells are primarily de-buffing in nature), and are instead spamming Bardic Inspiration to help their team-mates.
What role do wizards fill in the game? They're primarily direct damage blasters? Or are they primarily control characters? Or are they primarily utility characters? Because a lot of the time they're doing different things from that list. Bards are a stronger mythical archetype and more focused than wizards.
In fact, the bardic niche in 5e is so incohesive, that of the 8 official bard subclasses, 3 of them focus their main/beginning mechanical effects on enhancing their own weapon combat (the Colleges of Valor, Swords, Whispers),
Valour and Swords I agree are an overlap. College of Whispers isn't a weapon combat subclass - it's a spy and assassin.
two more share practically the same thematic niche but achieved slightly differently (College of Eloquence and College of Glamour),
Nope. College of Glamour is a rockstar who wants to be the center of attention. College of Eloquence is a diplomat or grifter who promotes or manipulates others. These are not the same thing at all.
the College of Lore just asks the question of "What if I was even more a Jack of All Trades?",
Oh noes. A PHB subclass doubles down on part of the thematics of the class and is distinct from the other PHB subclasses. That's well over half the PHB subclasses.
the last two are basically the only mechanically and thematically unique (but also kind of weird) subclasses for the Bards in the game (College of Creation, and College of Spirits. Both of which I'm actually quite fond of, but 2 of the 8 subclasses having actually thematically different and interesting mechanics isn't good, if you ask me).
7 of the 8 subclasses are thematically different, with the only exception being Valour/Swords.

Meanwhile this compares pretty favourably IMO to e.g. wizards where all the PHB wizard classes are just "Wizard but good at this type of spell" and there are eight of them. And that you personally do not find them thematically different and interesting means that you are someone who shouldn't be trying to fix the bard because you do not understand how it works when the bard is about as popular as any other class except the fighter, the rogue (who are a consistent first and second), and the druid (who's a consistent last).
So, what do you think? Should the bard be based more off the Artificer than, say, the Wizard? Any ideas similar to this, or ones that would promote this same general idea? Anyone have any criticisms of this?
"I don't like it" isn't even to being close to proof that something that is decently popular is broken. All you've shown is that you don't get the bard and you don't like it - and that the two are probably linked.

And as I mentioned earlier you don't start off by saying "We should nerf this" unless it's gamebreaking. You start off by presenting a positive vision of what something could be rather than simply slagging it off as your reason it should change.
 

The only critique that I have about the 5e concept of the Bard is, the Celtic bards used words to do magic, not musical instruments. (There were bardic families known for their music, but the magic is by words.) Norse mages never use musical instruments. The class needs to be able to be without an instrument.
It is able to be without an instrument, and oratory is specifically called out in the RAW. The only RAW trade-off it takes is that you need a spell component pouch to contain the material components that would otherwise be replaced by a musical instrument. (I absolutely agree that the bard should be able to use arcane focuses as well as instruments)
 

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