D&D General Why Editions Don't Matter

Umbran · Sep 21, 2022

Oofta said:
Not sure how fate would be considered more complete.

So, I think the definition of "completeness" being presented is equivalent to:

"A game is complete when there are no legal action declarations the player can make that are not covered in the rules."

Chess, for example, is complete, because the legal moves for each piece are explicitly stated.

The suggestion is that Fate's mechanic is so generalized that every "legal" action declaration can be covered by them, while D&D has holes in it that the GM must patch over.

Ship to ship naval combat, for example, is not covered by the Basic rules of D&D. We are given no rules for how ships maneuver, but PC abilities rely on knowing map distances down to about 5' resolution. The GM must make something up if they want to run ship-to-ship combat, while in Fate they don't.

doctorbadwolf · Sep 21, 2022

Maxperson said:
That pretty clearly tells us that the creature might not know, despite resisting and controlling the curse outside of the full moon

Like the first time the urges come upon them, how would they know their source unless they know that they got bit by a theriomorph and how that works? But then see below:

Umbran said:
How is this hard?

The person has dark and violent feelings and urges that they don't understand. These can be pushed aside, except under a full moon.

Exactly this.

Charlaquin · Sep 21, 2022

Vaalingrade said:
But the people who use this rhetorical device as an argument against things they don't like do not. And they expect you not to either.

Yeah, I just think “that’s a good thing” is a more effective counter-argument than “no it isn’t.”

Campbell · Sep 21, 2022

Basically a game text is complete when it tells you how to actually play the game: what each person's objectives are, how to go about resolving situations that come up, where discretionary judgement is required and what the ethos behind those judgement calls should be. The central conceit being that we should not have to rely on a shared cultural understanding of how D&D and other roleplaying games work to play a game (and also to open up play space for games that break those norms).

A really common example is that a lot of roleplaying games rely on the central conceit that players are part of a cohesive group that will take on adventures designed by the GM, but the game does nothing to enable that or even talk about it. Players are just expected to know and engage with the game in culturally prescribed ways. The text is incomplete - the game might not be.

This reliance on assumed cultural norms of play also makes it a lot more difficult to design games like Sorcerer or Apocalypse World that are based on a more individual character centered view of play because instead of just describing how your game works you have to describe how it differs from assumed standards of play not written in any book.

doctorbadwolf · Sep 22, 2022

gorice said:
I would submit that 5e as written absolutely is incomplete, to the extent that it's actually unplayable.

Obviously not, since it’s quite frequently played, very much especially by new players.

gorice said:
There is no group that plays it and does not join to dots with houserules. The trick is, this isn't obvious from a player's perspective. It's the DM-facing part of the game that is incomplete.

It isn’t a houserule to frame a scene.

gorice said:
For example: under what circumstances do I, as DM, frame a new scene?

As demanded by narrative and desired pacing. This is described in both PHB and DMG, IIRC.

gorice said:
How 'hard' can I frame it, and what do I take into account when doing so?

Desired challenge to PCs, and what is implied by previously established fiction, mostly.

gorice said:
This is really basic stuff you can't play the game without, and the rules don't, as far as I can tell, really say anything about it.

Sure they do. They describe an implied setting, with certain factions, powers, attitudes, etc, give the players detailed PCs, and then give advice for devising starting scenarios (said advice being poor, but hardly incomplete), and for adjudicating PC actions, which are the primary driver of the fiction.

IME, this is stuff nearly everyone just “gets”, but it is also in the books.

gorice said:
Then there's stuff like the entire exploration 'pillar', including travel, weather, wandering monsters, etc. These things 'exist' in the game text, but there are no clear procedures for actually bringing them into play.

Sure there are. The players want to track down the dragon, get intel about where to look, and decide to embark on a journey. So you use the travel rules. Any more procedure than that is a solution searching for a problem.

hawkeyefan · Sep 22, 2022

Setting aside the labels “complete” and “incomplete”, does anyone really disagree that most folks rely on guidance or information not presented in the books to help them play the game?

I mean, why do youtube channels like Dungeoncraft exist? Why do we have discussions on sites like this? Because the rules are crystal clear?

Forget the specific labels for a minute folks and think about the actual point.

Cadence · Sep 22, 2022

hawkeyefan said:
I mean, why do youtube channels like Dungeoncraft exist? Why do we have discussions on sites like this? Because the rules are crystal clear?

I think the rules aren't clear enough to comfortably jump into a lot of things -- even the ones that cover everything. And D&D seems like one of those things to me.

I think the MtG rules are rules complete - but I still bother people for help interpreting them sometimes (that layers thing).

I'm guessing most board games are rules complete - but it's still nice to have someone who's played before explain the main points so you can start and then be told the rest as it goes.

Bridge is rules complete, but I wouldn't want to sit four beginners down with a copy of Hoyle to learn how to play with any skill.

Is baseball rules complete at this point? But still things happen where the professional umpires need to remember what's in the rule book and mess it up once in a while (or the players or managers think they have).

Malmuria · Sep 22, 2022

Umbran said:
So, I think the definition of "completeness" being presented is equivalent to:

"A game is complete when there are no legal action declarations the player can make that are not covered in the rules."

Chess, for example, is complete, because the legal moves for each piece are explicitly stated.

The suggestion is that Fate's mechanic is so generalized that every "legal" action declaration can be covered by them, while D&D has holes in it that the GM must patch over.

Ship to ship naval combat, for example, is not covered by the Basic rules of D&D. We are given no rules for how ships maneuver, but PC abilities rely on knowing map distances down to about 5' resolution. The GM must make something up if they want to run ship-to-ship combat, while in Fate they don't.

But how does ship to ship combat happen in chess? That is, isn't it possible to always add a context that would make any game "incomplete"?

Cadence · Sep 22, 2022

Malmuria said:
But how does ship to ship combat happen in chess? That is, isn't it possible to always add a context that would make any game "incomplete"?

Manbearcat · Sep 22, 2022

Malmuria said:
But how does ship to ship combat happen in chess? That is, isn't it possible to always add a context that would make any game "incomplete"?

You have to append “the premise of the game” or you’ll end up with this proposed “infinity of incompleteness.”

It’s like this:

Cooking and Capentry and Stonemasonry and the like are Skills in the Burning Wheel family of games (and you have Gear/Supplies/Tools that integrate with those things and you might have a Trait and/or a Wise that may also integrates with those things and you might even pour on a resource like Fate or Persona on a test because the test is very consequential) because they matter to the premise of play. They aren’t just color. There are stakes for having them or not and consequential stakes when deploying them. There are codified rules for their usage. They are integrated within important sites of the game’s conflict (Lifestyle, Town/Camp phase).

They aren’t in all games because they aren’t a part of all games’ premise. That doesn’t make those games incomplete for not having them. So if one then goes on to say “well, what if we ever-expand a game’s premise (like karaoke challenge in Sudoku)…isn’t every game then incomplete (?)” then they’re landing there on the circular reasoning horse they rode in on!

D&D General Why Editions Don't Matter

Umbran

Mod Squad

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

hawkeyefan

Legend

Cadence

Legend

Malmuria

Hero

Cadence

Legend

Manbearcat

Legend

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