D&D General Why Editions Don't Matter

[Maxperson]

Sure. And I would say there's a natural restriction on both participant's authority, one that is self-imposed: They want to keep playing the game.

That would be the social contract, which is also present in more advanced games like the editions of D&D. Those restrictions apply to the player and the DM. If they can complete "coin flip game," then they can also be used to complete "D&D" and other RPGs.

 

[Charlaquin]

Aren't the Stealth rules somewhat notorious for giving some direction but leaving a lot of possible interactions up for grabs? I gloss over RAW debates because they're so boring, but I seem to remember that cropping up before.

The stealth rules are actually quite elegant in my opinion. What they come down to is, you can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly. If a creature can’t see you clearly, you can attempt to hide from it by making a Dex (Stealth) check against its passive Wis (Perception). If you succeed, you are hidden from the creature, which means it can’t see you and doesn’t know your location.

All of that is, in my opinion, perfectly clear. The only dispute is over what does or doesn’t constitute being “seen clearly.” In my experience this mainly comes up with dim light and light obscuration, which certainly seem like they should make a creature’s view of you unclear, but the existence of a few features that specifically allow you to hide in dim light or while lightly obscured make it seem like that’s not intended to be possible by default (its worth noting that the modifier “clearly” didn’t appear in the first printings of the PHB and was added later in errata). Also, some DMs don’t allow characters to hide from creatures that know their position, even if those creatures can’t see the character at all. This is not stated as a requirement in the rules, but it is a supported ruling, since the stealth rules specify that the DM determines when it’s possible to hide.

 

[TwoSix]

Does the coin-flip game even meet your definition of complete though? Someone has to apply their best judgement to determine what constitutes “an action” and requires a coin flip, as opposed to being a part of the player’s description or even being assumed and unnecessary to even narrate (for example, does the character need to flip a coin to dress themselves properly)?

Well, I would say that if two participants are merely co-narrating a story, taking turn to interject details, they aren't really playing a game. It's when their narration diverges, and participant 1 wants result A to happen and participant wants (not A) to happen, then it becomes a contest with stakes, and they formalize it as a "game" when they agree to let the coin-flip decide.

 

[Oofta]

The stealth rules are actually quite elegant in my opinion. What they come down to is, you can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly. If a creature can’t see you clearly, you can attempt to hide from it by making a Dex (Stealth) check against its passive Wis (Perception). If you succeed, you are hidden from the creature, which means it can’t see you and doesn’t know your location.

All of that is, in my opinion, perfectly clear. The only dispute is over what does or doesn’t constitute being “seen clearly.” In my experience this mainly comes up with dim light and light obscuration, which certainly seem like they should make a creature’s view of you unclear, but the existence of a few features that specifically allow you to hide in dim light or while lightly obscured make it seem like that’s not intended to be possible by default (its worth noting that the modifier “clearly” didn’t appear in the first printings of the PHB and was added later in errata). Also, some DMs don’t allow characters to hide from creatures that know their position, even if those creatures can’t see the character at all. This is not stated as a requirement in the rules, but it is a supported ruling, since the stealth rules specify that the DM determines when it’s possible to hide.

The reason the stealth rules work for me is because there are so many variables. Let's say Bob is trying to hide from Orc 1. Bob is in dim light but is standing in front of a window and just happens to be silhouetted by some dim light in the distance so Orc 1 knows exactly where Bob is. Orc 2 on the other hand is looking from a different angle and Bob is not in front of a window. Bob can be hidden from Orc 2 even if he's not from Orc 1.

I can't imagine a set of rules that would spell out that you can't hide if you're in dim light but also happen to be standing in front of a setting full moon. Sometimes it just comes down to a judgement call.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't think the underlined is accurately representative of PDM's style or opinion.

The characters are not incompetent. He advocates in other videos for characters to have skills appropriate to their backgrounds, and for that to be more free form. PCs in his style are indeed less powerful and operating with fewer safety nets, though antagonists are also correspondingly less powerful. Lower HP leading to shorter combats which get to crisis/decision points more quickly. This is a perfectly fun way to play for a lot of people. I really enjoy this style, though I'm a big 4E fan as well.

PDM is a fan of low levels and low bonuses. He might not think he is a fan of incompetent PCs but +2 on a d20 with no class feature rerolls or minimums is incompetent.

 

[Mannahnin]

PDM is a fan of low levels and low bonuses. He might not think he is a fan of incompetent PCs but +2 on a d20 with no class feature rerolls or minimums is incompetent.

I haven't subscribed to his patreon so I haven't watched him actually run.

If the target is DC 11, then a +2 bonus gives a 60% chance of success. If he presumes competence and only calls for a roll when the outcome is genuinely in doubt, that's not terrible. If he lets characters have bigger bonuses, even better. Or if he gives Advantage (a mechanic he's repeatedly endorsed) for a good approach.

Certainly some of his comments in his various vids have given me the sense that his math skills aren't quite as strong as mine (and likely yours) are, but if his players were constantly failing I doubt he'd have multiple over-full tables.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No one has EVER compared an RPG to a boardgame and meant it in a positive sense.

I’ll say this, I have described 4Ed as a video game, specifically fighting games like the Tekken or MK fanchises.

As I struggled to clarify, it was neither a compliment nor a critique, but a description of how the combat sequences felt to me as a player. And that wasn’t a feeling I had with prior iterations of the game.

IOW, not positive nor negative, just descriptive of a perceived difference.

 

[Minigiant]

I haven't subscribed to his patreon so I haven't watched him actually run.

If the target is DC 11, then a +2 bonus gives a 60% chance of success. If he presumes competence and only calls for a roll when the outcome is genuinely in doubt, that's not terrible. If he lets characters have bigger bonuses, even better. Or if he gives Advantage (a mechanic he's repeatedly endorsed) for a good approach.

Certainly some of his comments in his various vids have given me the sense that his math skills aren't quite as strong as mine (and likely yours) are, but if his players were constantly failing I doubt he'd have multiple over-full tables.

Well...

He says he has been running games for years and PCs struggle to make it to level 5. So my guess is either he doesn't hand out a lot of XP or they fail checks and die a lot.

PDM prefer grim gritty games.and some of the scenarios he describes are near suicidal where one screw up = death.

Also full tables don't equal general quality. You don't have to adjucate balnced and fair games if everyone at your table only wants to die hilariously. WHF RPG is built on that.

 

[Malmuria]

Nothing persuaded me more regarding "system matters" than the Edition Wars. Some of the most ardent "system doesn't matter" folks I recall then were also the most vehement when it came to arguing against 4e's system. While system may not matter to some or most, or even to the same extent, it clearly matters to some or enough. It clearly matters enough for WotC to feel the need to change it from 4e to 5e or from 5e to One D&D. It clearly matters for those invested in championing the belief that 5e is the best roleplaying game ever.


It's a nice message, but one of my personal issues with the video is the messenger. I do subscribe and listen to a fair number of Dungeon Craft's videos on his channel. IME, he tends to be more abrasive than comforting. Every other video, it feels as if he is complaining about something in contemporary D&D (e.g., skills, not deadly enough, "oh no my players are looking at their character sheets," etc.) or even D&D in general (e.g., leveling up, replacing hit points, etc.). He can get kind of crochety about random things. It's never clear from his videos whether 5e D&D is the greatest thing since sliced bread or the harbinger of some sort of carebear apocalypse.

System Doesn't Matter!

 

[Doctor Futurity]

Well, here is an example if you're curious:

Last night a PC in my game failed his save and is afflicted by Lycanthropy. Now, I know he has it due to the failed save, and I know a remove curse can get rid of it, but there is nothing in the rules about anything more. This is all there is:

View attachment 261891

How do they know they're afflicted? They need to know before they can choose to resist or embrace.
What about changing before the full moon? Can they resist it before then when the moon is full, or is it just the full moon? How many days is that?

Now, I can answer these questions easily myself, but for a newer DM I can see how they might feel a bit lost and wonder where are the rest of the rules on this? Is it in the DMG? Nope--nothing there I've ever seen.

So, while the rules for contracting and removing lycanthropy are there, the rest is missing and left up to the DM.

I don't follow, it seems pretty clear to me. When the curse sets in, ask the player if the PC embraces or resists. Then, come full moon, everything hits the fan. When is the full moon? If the world your gaming in hasn't thought to make things weird its pretty safe to assume the fantasyland in question mirrors Earth, so roughly once a month. I feel that the book, if it codified some of this into specific rules, would just be belaboring the point with needless extra complexity when the actual process is very simple and leans on role play and environment over mechanics.