D&D General Why Editions Don't Matter

[Micah Sweet]

To a gamer, sure. But to everyone else, we're all sitting around pretending to play elves and dwarves, acting out weird accents while rolling a d20 to resolve tasks and combat, adjusting HP, killing monsters, and taking their stuff.

To be honest, why should I care what non-gamers think about D&D? Of course they wouldn't know or care about the differences. I don't see the relevance.

 

[Aldarc]

Editions matter a lot. At least they do in D&D, where most editions are really completely different games.

Nothing persuaded me more regarding "system matters" than the Edition Wars. Some of the most ardent "system doesn't matter" folks I recall then were also the most vehement when it came to arguing against 4e's system. While system may not matter to some or most, or even to the same extent, it clearly matters to some or enough. It clearly matters enough for WotC to feel the need to change it from 4e to 5e or from 5e to One D&D. It clearly matters for those invested in championing the belief that 5e is the best roleplaying game ever.

Before this turns into an all-out edition war, I want to bring up the point of the video again. That is, we're all playing D&D, and to the vast majority of people who aren't part of the fandom, there isn't any functional difference. And even within the fandom, the differences are pretty minor compared to the similarities. Maybe we should focus on similarities.

It's a nice message, but one of my personal issues with the video is the messenger. I do subscribe and listen to a fair number of Dungeon Craft's videos on his channel. IME, he tends to be more abrasive than comforting. Every other video, it feels as if he is complaining about something in contemporary D&D (e.g., skills, not deadly enough, "oh no my players are looking at their character sheets," etc.) or even D&D in general (e.g., leveling up, replacing hit points, etc.). He can get kind of crochety about random things. It's never clear from his videos whether 5e D&D is the greatest thing since sliced bread or the harbinger of some sort of carebear apocalypse.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

carebear apocalypse.

BAND NAME!

 

[Minigiant]

Edition matters. Character creation is a top 3 part of D&D and each edition does classes and races different.

It's a nice message, but one of my personal issues with the video is the messenger. I do subscribe and listen to a fair number of Dungeon Craft's videos on his channel. IME, he tends to be more abrasive than comforting. Every other video, it feels as if he is complaining about something in contemporary D&D (e.g., skills, not deadly enough, "oh no my players are looking at their character sheets," etc.) or even D&D in general (e.g., leveling up, replacing hit points, etc.). He can get kind of crochety about random things. It's never clear from his videos whether 5e D&D is the greatest thing slice bread or the harbinger of some sort of carebear apocalypse.

PDM leans hard into freeform grimdark play, doesn't hide it, and doesn't like any rule that promotes heroic fantasy. A PC having 30 HP or 3 class features is too much. It's why he first keeps 4e of the list then adds it back as "Warcraft D&D".

He loves 5e for not having many base rules attached to skills and ability scores but hates that races and classes get features that have rules attached to skills and ability scores.

That's why edition doesn't matter to him. PDM prefers a style where he'll end up ignoring most of the rules of any edition and make it up himself.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I haven’t watched the video, but I find it amusing that the thumbnail doesn’t include a 4e cover (but does include a PF cover)

Yep. Noticed that myself.

With an escape valve as huge as "rulings, not rules", 5e is definltely playable "RAW".

Indeed. When "RAW" includes "do what you like, it's your game," it's hard to see what isn't "playing by the rules."

They've typically been playtested.

Given things like the infamous "Ghoul Surprise," I pray you'll forgive me for finding this the most humorous statement in your post.

Maybe we should focus on similarities.

It would have helped if people hadn't spent...ooh, half or more of the last decade-plus specifically crapping on one particular edition and making it their mission in life to define exactly how there couldn't possibly be any such similarities.

Hmm, that's an interesting comparison. If I were to sum up Wanderhome with a pithy phrase, I would say it's "play vibes not rules." There are sort of these prompts that take you through the game text, but very little structure, and basically no mechanics. I would also agree with the author in terms of the relation of game text to game play (this isn't from an actual interview; he's "interviewing" himself):

At first, the interview confused me because it sounded like it was conflicting with itself. Then I read the other parts of the article and...wow. Yeah, I literally have no idea what this person is trying to say--unless I take interpretations that sound incredibly uncharitable. So I'm going with telling you, "I literally have no idea what this person was trying to tell me, can you please explain in your own words?"

Well, notwithstanding what Jay said in the interview, that bit I posted is actual, concrete rules, and stricter than the equivalent rules for 5e. Is there some thing in the RPG community where no-one wants to admit they're a game designer?

Oh, definitely. Further, they don't ever want game design to be associated with any form of theory or analysis. It needs to be high art, totally disconnected from any notions of refining technique or improved implementation. Game designers as auteurs, as painters in words, as creators who cannot ever be constrained lest you destroy their delicate work.

To a gamer, sure. But to everyone else, we're all sitting around pretending to play elves and dwarves, acting out weird accents while rolling a d20 to resolve tasks and combat, adjusting HP, killing monsters, and taking their stuff.

The question is: Is this a lack of distinction born from ignorance, in the way that Korean cuisine differs from Indonesian cuisine and yet an ignorant American tourist has no notion of such differences? Or is it a lack of distinction born from there not actually being much distinction to make?

CR.

Indeed. Can't say how many times I've seen people--several on this very forum!--explicitly say that CR isn't any better than eyeballing it, and is sometimes worse.

It's why he first keeps 4e of the list then adds it back as "Warcraft D&D".

...of course he does.

And this is the person telling us "system doesn't matter."

What a bunch of bollocks. "System doesn't matter...unless it's a system I hate!"

 

[Minigiant]

...of course he does.

And this is the person telling us "system doesn't matter."

What a bunch of bollocks. "System doesn't matter...unless it's a system I hate!"

I don;t think he hates it as much as if the table sat down for 4e, he can't ignore 90% the rules.

PDM is a "If you roll 11 or higher you hit. Don't look at your sheet" DM. He says in the video that he wrote publish adventures in an edition he didn't even own. PDM doesn't really care about rules and plays low magic, gritty, grimdark games where characters are so low level you wont noticce how unbalanced everything is and you don't have enough stats to make meaningful choices.

He's not a bad guy nor DM. But if your preference is low level grimdark, system doesn't matter as everyone is incompetent and 2-3 hits to death no death save.

That's why he is no 4e fan. In 4e, the default is your PC being competent and the rules bolster this.

 

[Aldarc]

PDM leans hard into freeform grimdark play, doesn't hide it, and doesn't like any rule that promotes heroic fantasy. A PC having 30 HP or 3 class features is too much. It's why he first keeps 4e of the list then adds it back as "Warcraft D&D".

He loves 5e for not having many base rules attached to skills and ability scores but hates that races and classes get features that have rules attached to skills and ability scores.

That's why edition doesn't matter to him. PDM prefers a style where he'll end up ignoring most of the rules of any edition and make it up himself.

Pretty much. But referring to 4e as "Warcraft D&D" is blatant Edition Warring rhetoric.

 

[chaochou]

Pretty much. But referring to 4e as "Warcraft D&D" is blatant Edition Warring rhetoric.

I like 4e - the only edition I've time for, barring AD&D for nostalgia reasons. And I'll be honest, I never understood the offence at these comparisons.

Like a boardgame, you say? That's good - boardgames feature transparent, player-facing mechanics and player agency.
Like World of Warcraft, you say? That's good, World of Warcraft features incredibly well-honed teamwork and interdependency mechanics.

 

[Hussar]

If the same situation repeats itself, do you change the ruling?

If so, that is an inconsistency as a player I could not tolerate. If not, well, then it is just another house-rule to add to your short list.


Something I take immense pride in.

I'd be absolutely astonished if any of my players actually remembered what the ruling was last time. No one I play with cares that much, much less "could not tolerate". Yikes. No thank you.

 

[Hussar]

I like 4e - the only edition I've time for, barring AD&D for nostalgia reasons. And I'll be honest, I never understood the offence at these comparisons.

Like a boardgame, you say? That's good - boardgames feature transparent, player-facing mechanics and player agency.
Like World of Warcraft, you say? That's good, World of Warcraft features incredibly well-honed teamwork and interdependency mechanics.

Which is fine, so long as you deliberately ignore the contextual meanings of words and phrases and then reinterpret what people say to fit a new meaning. Makes actual communication virtually impossible, but, sure, it does work.

No one has EVER compared an RPG to a boardgame and meant it in a positive sense. Nor any video game comparison. Unfortunately, people think that comparing 4e to a board game or a video game does anything more than simply say, "I don't like this game but, simply saying I don't like it isn't good enough, so I need to 'prove' that the game is an inferior game to a 'true' role playing game so I'll compare it to stuff that I know will piss people off".

It's basic edition war rhetoric at its finest.