D&D General Why Editions Don't Matter

[CleverNickName]

This discussion is starting to travel down some familiar roads...

 

[Malmuria]

This discussion is starting to travel down some familiar roads...

Are you saying that we as discussion participants lack agency? That we will face the ogre no matter what arguments we make???

 

[Hussar]

The completeness of a set of rules is not a matter of opinion. Either it is complete or it is incomplete, and whichever the case may be, it is the case no matter what anyone’s opinion may be.

I would strongly disagree with this.

There are all sorts of shades of “complete”. If the mechanics serve my purpose, they are complete for me but might be incomplete for someone else who wants, for example, greater granularity.

This we see the back and forth about the exploration rules in 5e. Or the naval combat rules in Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

Replace “complete” with “rules I personally like” and we generally see posts making a lot more sense.

 

[CleverNickName]

Are you saying that we as discussion participants lack agency? That we will face the ogre no matter what arguments we make???

Nope. (What?)
I'm saying this is all starting to sound familiar.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Ok, sure. But that may instead be indicative that 5E as written requires a lot of tweaking to make it play the way you want, where 1E and 2E didn't.

Correct.

But, for example, the 1E initiative system as written is just straight-up busted and incomplete. ADDICT is adequate evidence of that. You literally have to truncate, patch, or entirely replace it just to play the game. OD&D as published literally has no initiative system.

Sure. 1E initiative was overly complex and IME very few people actually really understood how it worked. Most had "approximate" systems for initiative which mirrored 1E's, but wasn't "quite the same".

I recently (a few months back) introduced my Saturday group to 1E with mixed results. Parts of it they really liked, other parts they felt were overly complex. I joke with them (but seriously) that 1E helped make me good at math because I had to figure a lot of stuff out--I had no one really to show me after I started playing with my friends instead of my cousins and sister.

That is one reason why when 2E came out I adopted a hybrid 1E/2E edition which I played for about 15 years with a lot of people and it worked well. 2E simplified a lot of the complexity in 1E, but kept much of the feel since other aspects were just a copy of 1E.

That is a truly massive amount of houserules for a game for which most people I have played with, watched/listened to play, and talked to about the game, would have maybe 3 houserules total.

I think that is because you are failing to realize that every "ruling not rule" is really a house-rule, even if not written down.

Our Mod is so large because as well as changing a lot of things, we are also writing down all those rulings so they are rules.

Whereas I have less than a single page. Same with most games I play. I can't imagine playing a game that had 150 pages of modifications or how anyone would keep track of everything.

I'm glad it works for you but you have exponentially more house rules than anyone I've ever encountered in real life.

(see my response just above your quote)

Yeah, I have two groups right now. One plays with a truncated version of the Mod, the other with just a couple house-rules because they are learning the game and I want them to learn it as close to RAW/RAI as possible so if they join other tables, they know what the bases are.

When I first started playing 5E four years ago, we played to level 5 (about 3 months IIRC) without any house-rules. Yes, I had to make up "rulings" on the fly, and some of those became "established" as how to adjudicate something--which is a house-rule.

I mean, you can ask several different DMs how would you do X, Y, and Z? And you'll get different answers each time probably, even if the difference is small. Each answer is a ruling, which is just a house-rule "on the fly" so to say. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't work well, and they revise it. Eventually, a DM comes up with an established way the like to handle X, Y, and Z, and that becomes their house-rule for it.

For example, in my other post I ask about jumping and extending the distance you can jump by making a Strength (Athletics) check. I know how I would rule it (a ruling) and so it became a house-rule.

FWIW, I go back and forth on what house-rules I REALLY want to implement to make the game more complete and fun for me to DM and which house-rules are not really necessary. At this point I have four Golden House-Rules, which for a house-ruled game (my Saturday group) we won't play without. Once my Monday night group is more experienced, I'll introduce those rules/systems for their consideration.

The Mod I am (constantly! ) working on I will probably post someday, either here or someplace for free. I doubt anyone else is obsessive enough to use it all, but I hope bits and pieces might appeal to different groups for their own use. I mean, really though, it is smaller the A5E.

Which doesn't make what @DND_Reborn wrong if it works for them, but if I added up all the house rules I've ever seen anyone use I doubt I'd come up with 15 pages, much less 150.

Well, the current breakdown is roughly:

50-pages on chapters 2-4 in the PHB (races, classes, and backgrounds)
50-pages on chapters 5-9 (equipment, feats, ability scores, adventuring, and combat)
50-pages on chapters 10-11 (spellcasting and spells) and DM misc./creatures

Honestly, after your character is created, a player would really only need about 10% of it for that PC, the rest might need to be referenced at level ups, etc.

This really was intentional, but probably not quite to the extent it became. The goal of 5E (D&D Next) was to create a game with the broadest appeal possible. To do this, it required a solid chassis that can be tweaked and modded by each DM/group to fit their preferred style, since there were serious edition wars over different styles of play. During the playtest, the divides deepened, so much so they had to shut down the D&D Forums. This meant that to appease all sides, they had to keep the base rules as generic as possible, believing that each side would adjust to play their preferred style (not realizing the deep desire of RAW had settled into most players). Unfortunately, this left a lot of gaps, since to clarify them would offend one group or another, potentially driving away customers.

Oh, I know it was intentional. I just wish they hadn't made it "quite" so open. I don't want GURPS or anything that in-depth, but a bit deeper into rules and systems would have made the game better of a lot of other players IME.

With an escape valve as huge as "rulings, not rules", 5e is definltely playable "RAW".

Yep, but what people often don't consider is "rulings, not rules" are, in fact, house-rules.

How far can you B/X character jump?

Can my elf swim?

Well, it has been nearly three decades, but pretty easily:

As far as the DM allows you to jump?

I don't know, you tell me: can your elf swim?

Yeah for sure.

Me, I’d just rewrite the system or find a different system, at that point.

Believe me, I have been looking!

 

[Vaalingrade]

Hmm, that's an interesting comparison. If I were to sum up Wanderhome with a pithy phrase, I would say it's "play vibes not rules." There are sort of these prompts that take you through the game text, but very little structure, and basically no mechanics. I would also agree with the author in terms of the relation of game text to game play (this isn't from an actual interview; he's "interviewing" himself):

I would ask what I'm paying him for with his game, but then after ruminating on the whole interview... I never intend to.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The rules are incomplete because such commonly asked questions pop up.

No, the rules aren’t to your taste, because answers to such questions aren’t directly and explicitly laid out in detailed mechanical language.

I’ve never seen a new DM have any trouble upon being told that the game is built this way on purpose, and that they should just do what makes sense and suits the story, in conversation with the players.

I would wager that most new DMs don’t struggle with much of 5e in general, tbh.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think that is because you are failing to realize that every "ruling not rule" is really a house-rule, even if not written down.

I understand quite well that you see it that way.

Our Mod is so large because as well as changing a lot of things, we are also writing down all those rulings so they are rules.

Which is an entirely optional excercise that isn’t needed to run the game, and most groups don’t do.

 

[gorice]

Well, notwithstanding what Jay said in the interview, that bit I posted is actual, concrete rules, and stricter than the equivalent rules for 5e. Is there some thing in the RPG community where no-one wants to admit they're a game designer?

 

[Vaalingrade]

I would wager that most new DMs don’t struggle with much of 5e in general, tbh.

CR.