D&D General Why Editions Don't Matter

[Hussar]

I'm not making any judgement about whether you need the game text to spell this stuff out in order to play. I'm just saying, this stuff doesn't exist in 5th ed. Generally, people substitute procedures from older editions, or stuff they've learned online.

You absolutely are joining the dots when you do that, though. The game literally cannot be played without it.

Scene framing has never existed in any form of DnD.

You are basically saying that no version of DnD is playable.

 

[gorice]

Yes, 5E is rulings over rules and doing what makes sense for the campaign and your group. It's called "being a DM". There is no static list because it's just not that type of game, it's designed for flexibility. If you need that kind of guidance there are modules galore.

Millions of people manage to "invent" things without the rules telling them specifics. That may not work for you, no game is perfect for everyone.

I think you might misunderstand me. I'm not saying I want more crunch, or that I'm uncomfortable making rulings, or that you're a bad wrong DM for doing so. I'm actually very comfortable making rulings and inventing stuff -- it's part of the fun of the game, for me.

What I'm saying is: I want to know when and under which circumstances to do these things. Like, here's some text from a game called Wanderhome, picked randomly from my folder of PDFs.

This text explains how to start playing the game. It's a bit vague about who gets to say what (maybe a flaw, but whatever), but it's pretty clear that you start the game by establishing a scene as a group, and gives you some tools to do that.

In 5e, establishing the location is a DM's responsibility, I guess? I'm fine with that. How do I do that, though? Am I allowed to start my PCs in a jail cell with no stuff, or do they get some say in it? How do I decide if and when monsters attack? Can my players influence where we go in the next scene, or do they have to go where I tell them?

This is the kind of basic stuff I'm talking about when I say 'joining the dots'. Experienced DMs will have their own answers to these questions, but new ones often struggle.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Before this turns into an all-out edition war, I want to bring up the point of the video again. That is, we're all playing D&D, and to the vast majority of people who aren't part of the fandom, there isn't any functional difference. And even within the fandom, the differences are pretty minor compared to the similarities. Maybe we should focus on similarities.

With a notable exception I have enjoyed a lot of different D&Ds. What I have come to find though is the group is more important than the game much of the time.

Where things matter—rule sets for me is where the game allows you to break it. Wish spells, flying divination.

If it lacks these things, the DM is not going to add in these generally. So with the right group would I enjoy 3e even though I have been into 1e and 5e? Totally.

 

[Jack Daniel]

This whole topic is really just asking, "How much does System Matter?"

I say that it matters more than Professor Dungeon Master thinks it does, but less than Ron Edwards thought it did.

 

[gorice]

Before this turns into an all-out edition war, I want to bring up the point of the video again. That is, we're all playing D&D, and to the vast majority of people who aren't part of the fandom, there isn't any functional difference. And even within the fandom, the differences are pretty minor compared to the similarities. Maybe we should focus on similarities.

I dunno, man. I don't feel like an old-school dungeon crawl and railroaded 'adventure path' are the same game. Maybe not even the same medium, in really horrible cases.

Scene framing has never existed in any form of DnD.

You are basically saying that no version of DnD is playable.

You telling me B/X doesn't have rules for stocking dungeons and exploring them?

And, yeah, OD&D in particular has massive holes in its rules. People figured out solutions.

 

[Charlaquin]

I gotta be honest here, I tend to just put "In my opinion," in front of most statements about a game.

"[In my opinion,] the rules are broken!"
"[In my opinion,] the grapple rules are complete."

The completeness of a set of rules is not a matter of opinion. Either it is complete or it is incomplete, and whichever the case may be, it is the case no matter what anyone’s opinion may be.

 

[Malmuria]

I think you might misunderstand me. I'm not saying I want more crunch, or that I'm uncomfortable making rulings, or that you're a bad wrong DM for doing so. I'm actually very comfortable making rulings and inventing stuff -- it's part of the fun of the game, for me.

What I'm saying is: I want to know when and under which circumstances to do these things. Like, here's some text from a game called Wanderhome, picked randomly from my folder of PDFs.
View attachment 261907
This text explains how to start playing the game. It's a bit vague about who gets to say what (maybe a flaw, but whatever), but it's pretty clear that you start the game by establishing a scene as a group, and gives you some tools to do that.

In 5e, establishing the location is a DM's responsibility, I guess? I'm fine with that. How do I do that, though? Am I allowed to start my PCs in a jail cell with no stuff, or do they get some say in it? How do I decide if and when monsters attack? Can my players influence where we go in the next scene, or do they have to go where I tell them?

This is the kind of basic stuff I'm talking about when I say 'joining the dots'. Experienced DMs will have their own answers to these questions, but new ones often struggle.

Hmm, that's an interesting comparison. If I were to sum up Wanderhome with a pithy phrase, I would say it's "play vibes not rules." There are sort of these prompts that take you through the game text, but very little structure, and basically no mechanics. I would also agree with the author in terms of the relation of game text to game play (this isn't from an actual interview; he's "interviewing" himself):

An Interview​

Q: What is your biggest pet peeve in game design?

A: I hate when games try and tell me what counts as playing them. Like when I sit down and I pull out a Powered By The Apocalypse game and it tells me that play is a conversation that is periodically interrupted by moves. Bitch how do you know that, you don’t know me! [laughs] But seriously, I think a lot of modern games assume all the players have the energy to be hyper-engaged and hyper-invested in the game mechanics, and I’m not sure that has to be true. Maybe I want to explore a game without having to think about fictional triggers or make big decisions. Aren’t I still playing, even if I’m just vibing?

Q: But at what point can you separate freeform RP from playing an RPG?

A: Why are we drawing that distinction in the first place? If I hang out with my friends and we all tell stories set in the world of Earthsea, can it not be said that we’re playing Earthsea? And by extension, if we all tell stories in the world implied by Monsterhearts, isn’t that still Monsterhearts even if we’re not using the dice mechanics described by the book?

Q: So, are you saying system doesn’t matter?

A: I don’t think so? I just think like … the text matters, because it’s sitting on the damn table in front of us. We put it down on the table, so obviously it matters to us. It’s the shared set of building blocks that we use to figure out our game.

Q: That sounds like OSR.

A: Is it? I don’t know. I’m 23, when you’re 23 you feel like you’ve figured out everything. But I don’t know naughty word yet! Maybe I’ll completely disagree in five years. Who knows!

 

[Hussar]

I dunno, man. I don't feel like an old-school dungeon crawl and railroaded 'adventure path' are the same game. Maybe not even the same medium, in really horrible cases.

You telling me B/X doesn't have rules for stocking dungeons and exploring them?

And, yeah, OD&D in particular has massive holes in its rules. People figured out solutions.

It says you start in a town with a dungeon nearby. True.

First module I played was the Lost City where you start lost in the desert and there is no town.

 

[Oofta]

Before this turns into an all-out edition war, I want to bring up the point of the video again. That is, we're all playing D&D, and to the vast majority of people who aren't part of the fandom, there isn't any functional difference. And even within the fandom, the differences are pretty minor compared to the similarities. Maybe we should focus on similarities.

The similarities to me are primarily in the resulting narrative of the game. Did we stop the goblin invasion? Can we make an alliance between these two factions work, how much does my dwarf like ale? How many sessions will I get with my new elf PC this time before they die?

I've run my campaigns based on a world I created when I was in high school (hint: a long, long time ago). Some overall themes come and go but ultimately it's all about sitting around a table telling jokes and having fun pretending to be something we're not in a world that only exists in our imagination.

I do think rules matter, different editions can feel quite different. But the stories we tell? The things we'll remember and tell stories about years later? Those stay the same.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah, I have a ton of history, lore and background information in a wiki that I've built up over the years. But it's information on things like Alfheim is ruled by the Sidhe and is the equivalent of the feywild. That's not house rules, just stating that I don't follow standard default cosmology.

Which doesn't make what @DND_Reborn wrong if it works for them, but if I added up all the house rules I've ever seen anyone use I doubt I'd come up with 15 pages, much less 150.

Yeah for sure.

Me, I’d just rewrite the system or find a different system, at that point.