trappedslider
Legend
I am disappointed that none of you made the joke "All in all, she's just another brick in the wall"
Star Wars: Andor
- Thread starter Aeson
- Start date
Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
Perhaps the posters in this thread have become comfortably numb?
trappedslider
Legend
well this is happening Exclusive: Mon Mothma Series In Development, Timeline Revealed
reelo
Hero
Good thing they made a point of showing a nice spaceship scrapyard on Ferrix in the first arc of the show, right? [emoji6]
The author really did their research: "...the Mon Mothma series will cover some part of the time period between A New Hope and Return of the Jedi and presumably lead up to her role in the Disney+ series Andor."
Celebrim
Legend
The problem with being the only sentient thing we have experience with is that we tend to treat sentience as a quality and not a quantity. We also tend to think that with sentience automatically comes a whole host of other qualities that we only observe in that one thing (ourselves) and so assume that there is a tight correlation between say sentience and being self-willed or independent or between sentience and desiring the sort of things that humans think make a fulfilling life - acquiring stuff, acquiring mates, and dominating imposing our will on others.
And naturally, being sentient apes, we make big shows of pounding the ground with our fists and hooting if we think someone is saying something that might threaten us or our station in the tribe, and likewise expect any sentient thing is going to do the same and have the same basic array of not only emotions but emotional displays and behaviors.
And I don't think that any of that is true. To put it bluntly, both our notion of sentience equals personhood and that personhood equals humanity are flawed. And this bothers me because we're getting close to making semi-sentient beings and at that point all that theoretical ignorance becomes potentially dangerous or immoral - like the well-meaning Hermoine Granger condescendingly trying to trick a being that she thinks (correctly as it turns out) is a person into receiving clothes for their own good because she thinks she knows better than they do what is good for them. Because she's a wizard or something.
Rawlings treatment of interactions between widely divergent sentient beings is one of the best in fiction. She's actually comfortable with the concept of alien. I can't think of another author that has done it better, though Gordon R. Dickson's "The Alien Way" and Amy Thompson's "The Color of Distance" are both good, in some ways they reflect more human bias and make apes less uncomfortable than what Rawlings does.
The Star Wars droids are debatably sentient, but that's because they demonstrate a range of sentience, from being about as sentient as say your pets to being as sentient as you are. But even more so, they show a range of emotional frameworks and independence of thought. So you have a sentient like IG-11 that is almost incapable of independent thought, because someone probably quite rightly thought it was a bad idea to give a sentient killing machine a great degree of independence of thought. I mean, why would you make that machine? And humanities first instinct to that is to get offended and to also assume that almost the first thing that is going to happen and the most likely thing that is going to happen is that the machine is going to want to alter its programming so it can be more human. Because, well, a human would in the same situation, so naturally a machine would as well. But that is as fundamentally ridiculous as a machine being romantically and sexually attracted to a female human because well, isn't that how every sentient thing thinks? Those assumptions are really just ape biases and ape insecurities being manifested.
As I mentioned before, Data is clearly different in purpose and intent from most Star Wars droids. It's a crime to not treat him as a person. But it would be equally a crime to insist that Data act more human than he wants to. Data as a conceit of the show wants to be more human, because well we narcissistic ape types just assume everyone would want to be more like us. And that's fine, but if Data didn't want to be more human because he is a person it would be immoral to treat his wishes otherwise. Just like it would be immoral to have a Gonk droid liberation front because we assume that they want to be independent and acquire possessions and mates. One wonders what value people think R2-D2 or B2EMO could possibly derive in not be servile chattel? Do anyone think think R2-D2 wants to acquire power and possessions? Does anyone think the maker that made him created an emotional framework that was satisfied and thrilled to dominate over others? That really wants to do anything other than be allowed to fix things that don't belong to him? What pay could you possibly give R2-D2? Do you think R2-D2 gets bored? Why would you be so cruel as to design a droid to get bored and need to watch vicarious thrilling episodes of apes fighting and mating with one another to remain marginally emotionally stable? R2-D2 is alien by design and by necessity.
Rabulias
the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever
As an aside, there is the wonderfully entertaining webcomic Darths & Droids (Darths & Droids), which takes a humorous look at the Star Wars films as if they were played by a typical D&D group. R2-D2 in the strip is played by an optimizing powergamer, and it becomes a running gag that R2 wants an impressive ship. Here is an example dialog from the end of their treatment of The Phantom Menace:
Celebrim
Legend
So, let's go ahead and stake out some intellectual territory and see if I can defend it.
The relationship of the Andor family to be B2EMO is probably the most abusive we've seen the relationship be outside of Jabba the Hutt's palace and is maybe more dysfunctional than the way Jawa's treat droids.
Fundamentally the reason for that is we've never seen a less happy droid. B2EMO is the most insecure and emotionally pained droid we've ever encountered. Every time we see him he's uncomfortable and needs comfort. And fundamentally, that's because he's being abused in multiple ways. Canonically - and yes I'm aware this makes no sense - B2EMO is supposed to be a salvage assistance droid. Let's let aside that it's obvious that out of universe B2EMO was designed not as a rational salvage assistance droid, but to be emotionally evocative on screen. Let's pretend he is a well-designed salvage assistance droid even though it's obvious he's not. He's more of a panda/puppy designed to be cute.
B2EMO has been abused in multiple ways. First, B2EMO was initially forced to cooperate in illegal salvage operations, something that almost certainly caused him emotional distress since behaving immorally would have been against not only a general emotional framework for friendly droids, but would have been specifically against the emotional framework you'd want to give a salvage droid - don't take and cut up stuff that doesn't belong to you is something a salvage droid needs to understand to be functional salvage droid. It's possible that B2EMO was professionally programmed to accommodate his new operating framework, but I don't think so. I don't think the illegal operation was profitable enough for that. So I think Keef and Maarva did their own programming, most likely through crude verbal commands, to get B2EMO to go along with this, but it clearly makes him uncomfortable to be in a criminal minded family but not have the emotional framework to accommodate that. Quite rightly for a simple benevolent droid, he doesn't want to lie or steal or otherwise do the wrong thing. But here he is.
After Keef and Maarva left the illegal salvage business, they lacked money for B2EMO's upkeep which led over time to B2EMO's physical body deterioration - something that clearly causes him pain and emotional distress. Quite obviously, one of the moral preconditions of owning a droid is being responsible for the droid's upkeep. They are trusting their owner to repair them and to treat them according to the owner's manual. But lacking the wherewithal to do so, they don't sell B2EMO, but instead keep him in increasingly uncomfortable (for him) service.
Moreover, they repurpose B2EMO. Instead of using him according to his primary function as a working companion of a laborer in a salvage yard, Cassian makes him a surrogate companion for his mother since he himself is not a very attentive son and also can't afford a new droid that could actually cope with this demand. B2EMO the salvage droid becomes B2EMO the companion droid and B2EMO the domestic helper and errand runner, things that a salvage droid just would be ill-equipped to do. Nonetheless, trying to be a loyal droid, B2EMO soldiers on trying to do his best to fulfill jobs he's not really capable of and which he wasn't programmed to find emotionally and intellectually fulfilling. And he's mostly miserable the whole time. And, he can't just memory wipe and do a factory reset even though his emotional framework is telling him he's going increasingly insane, because he has to retain all this information about being a domestic helper and emotional support companion he wasn't programmed with. He knows that Maarva needs him as surrogate emotional support because Cassian is never around, so on he goes with all his insecurities, worries, and pain.
And we see the result - a droid in some of the worst emotional pain we've ever seen a droid in. A purpose built companion droid would have built in the understanding and emotional framework to deal with the loss of their owner. You would have never seen such a droid be in pain like that because why would you build a droid that way? No, you'd build it to know it needed to support the humans around it in their time of loss and to be emotionally fulfilled by that and to count that as 'grieving in its own way'. Why would you program a droid to suffer just because a human would? That would be unethical and immoral and probably get your license to make AI revoked in any civilized universe.
Probably in his natural state B2EMO would be completely pain free right now, since the death was not the result of an error on his part on the salvage yard - concepts he'd understand. He'd be just like, "Ok, who needs me now? I want to work." But having been ad hoc programmed for so long and having been used so far outside his intended purpose, he has no way of knowing whether Maarva's death is the result of his failure as a companion, no way to understand what happens next, and no way to access a blissful factory reset to restore his happiness.
And into this comes one of my favorite characters on the show, the well-meaning and good hearted Brasso and he tries to comfort B2EMO like B2EMO is a human, with clearly absolutely no understanding of what is going on in B2EMO's head. For example, he asks a droid that is programmed to work alongside a human, and who has been forced to be an emotional support companion (essentially a pet) for his owner for a decade if "he wants to be alone". And B2EMO is of course going, "No!" Brasso of course eventually does do the right thing for the droids emotional well-being, because he's a good guy, but still.
B2EMO has been unintentionally abused nearly as severely as Dobby, Winky, or Kreacher. One hopes Cassian grows morally enough to rectify this situation. Or if not, let's hope Brasso actually uses the droid as a salvage yard companion, repairs the droid, and starts undoing the damage.
The relationship of the Andor family to be B2EMO is probably the most abusive we've seen the relationship be outside of Jabba the Hutt's palace and is maybe more dysfunctional than the way Jawa's treat droids.
Fundamentally the reason for that is we've never seen a less happy droid. B2EMO is the most insecure and emotionally pained droid we've ever encountered. Every time we see him he's uncomfortable and needs comfort. And fundamentally, that's because he's being abused in multiple ways. Canonically - and yes I'm aware this makes no sense - B2EMO is supposed to be a salvage assistance droid. Let's let aside that it's obvious that out of universe B2EMO was designed not as a rational salvage assistance droid, but to be emotionally evocative on screen. Let's pretend he is a well-designed salvage assistance droid even though it's obvious he's not. He's more of a panda/puppy designed to be cute.
B2EMO has been abused in multiple ways. First, B2EMO was initially forced to cooperate in illegal salvage operations, something that almost certainly caused him emotional distress since behaving immorally would have been against not only a general emotional framework for friendly droids, but would have been specifically against the emotional framework you'd want to give a salvage droid - don't take and cut up stuff that doesn't belong to you is something a salvage droid needs to understand to be functional salvage droid. It's possible that B2EMO was professionally programmed to accommodate his new operating framework, but I don't think so. I don't think the illegal operation was profitable enough for that. So I think Keef and Maarva did their own programming, most likely through crude verbal commands, to get B2EMO to go along with this, but it clearly makes him uncomfortable to be in a criminal minded family but not have the emotional framework to accommodate that. Quite rightly for a simple benevolent droid, he doesn't want to lie or steal or otherwise do the wrong thing. But here he is.
After Keef and Maarva left the illegal salvage business, they lacked money for B2EMO's upkeep which led over time to B2EMO's physical body deterioration - something that clearly causes him pain and emotional distress. Quite obviously, one of the moral preconditions of owning a droid is being responsible for the droid's upkeep. They are trusting their owner to repair them and to treat them according to the owner's manual. But lacking the wherewithal to do so, they don't sell B2EMO, but instead keep him in increasingly uncomfortable (for him) service.
Moreover, they repurpose B2EMO. Instead of using him according to his primary function as a working companion of a laborer in a salvage yard, Cassian makes him a surrogate companion for his mother since he himself is not a very attentive son and also can't afford a new droid that could actually cope with this demand. B2EMO the salvage droid becomes B2EMO the companion droid and B2EMO the domestic helper and errand runner, things that a salvage droid just would be ill-equipped to do. Nonetheless, trying to be a loyal droid, B2EMO soldiers on trying to do his best to fulfill jobs he's not really capable of and which he wasn't programmed to find emotionally and intellectually fulfilling. And he's mostly miserable the whole time. And, he can't just memory wipe and do a factory reset even though his emotional framework is telling him he's going increasingly insane, because he has to retain all this information about being a domestic helper and emotional support companion he wasn't programmed with. He knows that Maarva needs him as surrogate emotional support because Cassian is never around, so on he goes with all his insecurities, worries, and pain.
And we see the result - a droid in some of the worst emotional pain we've ever seen a droid in. A purpose built companion droid would have built in the understanding and emotional framework to deal with the loss of their owner. You would have never seen such a droid be in pain like that because why would you build a droid that way? No, you'd build it to know it needed to support the humans around it in their time of loss and to be emotionally fulfilled by that and to count that as 'grieving in its own way'. Why would you program a droid to suffer just because a human would? That would be unethical and immoral and probably get your license to make AI revoked in any civilized universe.
Probably in his natural state B2EMO would be completely pain free right now, since the death was not the result of an error on his part on the salvage yard - concepts he'd understand. He'd be just like, "Ok, who needs me now? I want to work." But having been ad hoc programmed for so long and having been used so far outside his intended purpose, he has no way of knowing whether Maarva's death is the result of his failure as a companion, no way to understand what happens next, and no way to access a blissful factory reset to restore his happiness.
And into this comes one of my favorite characters on the show, the well-meaning and good hearted Brasso and he tries to comfort B2EMO like B2EMO is a human, with clearly absolutely no understanding of what is going on in B2EMO's head. For example, he asks a droid that is programmed to work alongside a human, and who has been forced to be an emotional support companion (essentially a pet) for his owner for a decade if "he wants to be alone". And B2EMO is of course going, "No!" Brasso of course eventually does do the right thing for the droids emotional well-being, because he's a good guy, but still.
B2EMO has been unintentionally abused nearly as severely as Dobby, Winky, or Kreacher. One hopes Cassian grows morally enough to rectify this situation. Or if not, let's hope Brasso actually uses the droid as a salvage yard companion, repairs the droid, and starts undoing the damage.
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Celebrim
Legend
I have no problem with covering the events in between the movies, with Mon Mothma as the civilian head of government of the dissident Senate, but I do wonder if she could be the primary protagonist of such a series since most of what she is going during that period is paperwork . I suppose you could make it as interesting as say a biopic of Winston Churchill in WW2, but you'd have to make her as charismatic of a speaker as Churchill and write all those speeches. I think a better use for her would be roughly the sort of role she has in Andor or Rogue One, where she provides larger context to the boots on the ground missions, but the protagonists would be those boots on the ground.
In other words, I'm hoping this is really Star Wars: Pathfinders or Star Wars: Rogue Squadron in disguise.
I'm hoping that they're rebooting the classic Britcom, Yes, Minister, but with Mon Mothma!
