Spoilers Star Wars: Andor season 2

[Necropolitan]

Yeah, by the end I had nothing but hatred for Luthen and felt nothing at this death. He turned out to not be the man he seemed to be, which I guess isn't technically surprising, but still is disappointing. Things "worked out" for him it felt largely by dramatic convenience and because his enemies were stupid and not because he was this important mastermind central to the rebellion. The story wants us to believe how important he was, but by the end of season two I was left doubting that.

Luthen's actions made people trust him less, which caused him to do ever worse things out of paranoia/needing to now take even worse actions to cover for his previous ones.

Luthen's assets (that's all anyone was to him at best) either knew or learned he'd have them killed the moment they stopped being useful. Which destroyed their morale, often making them liabilities as a result. He actively crushed their hope as a means of keeping them under his thumb, he was incapable of motivating people in any way other than fear and the Empire would ALWAYS be better when it comes to creating fear.

The Rebellion could never win a war of ruthlessness with the Empire, they NEEDED the rest of the Galaxy to support them. By keeping the moral highground the only weapon the Empire had to fight them with was force and fear of force.

And as the show repeatedly showed that's not sustainable because it makes people realize there's only "ONE WAY OUT!"

 

[chuckdee]

No, he was wrong about that too.

Saw was more of a threat to the Rebellion than he was to the Empire.

Yeah, I disagree on that part- especially given the results of the raid. If he'd planned to go where he told the rebellion he was going, he would have been caught. The rebellion at that point was a sieve.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Luthen himself knew what he was doing and that he wouldn't be the one lauded as a hero eventually. He knew he was just a stepping stone for the Rebellion and wouldn't see its fruits, and not just in the sense that he would probably get caught or killed before it succeeds. He could by the nature of his work (but maybe also by his own personal individual shortcomings) never grow into a Rebel Alliance leader like Mon Mothma. But Mon Mothma also couldn't lay that level of groundwork he did with her methods, there were just too many places she couldn't go, too many things she couldn't - or wouldn't - do.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Luthen's actions made people trust him less, which caused him to do ever worse things out of paranoia/needing to now take even worse actions to cover for his previous ones.

Luthen's assets (that's all anyone was to him at best) either knew or learned he'd have them killed the moment they stopped being useful. Which destroyed their morale, often making them liabilities as a result. He actively crushed their hope as a means of keeping them under his thumb, he was incapable of motivating people in any way other than fear and the Empire would ALWAYS be better when it comes to creating fear.

The Rebellion could never win a war of ruthlessness with the Empire, they NEEDED the rest of the Galaxy to support them. By keeping the moral highground the only weapon the Empire had to fight them with was force and fear of force.

And as the show repeatedly showed that's not sustainable because it makes people realize there's only "ONE WAY OUT!"

I think this is a pretty spectacular and complete misreading of Andor lol, especially if you know anything about Tony Gilroy.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The one thing that slightly bugs me about the series is that it frames rebellion mostly as cultural identity politics

I don't think it does really.

I think it shows you can use cultural identity politics intersectionally to encourage groups into a more... clarified... understanding of where they stand. That they can be situationally helpful in forming a unified front on issues, and getting people involved who might otherwise balk at the idea. But I don't think it frames the overall struggle that way at all. It is inevitable that everyone within a revolution/rebellion is, technically, going to be a member of various cultural identity groups, but that doesn't have to be their main motivating factor (it's likely to be part of it, but probably not all of it, and often not a large part). I mean just look at Luthen himself - we know basically nothing about him identity-wise, apart from he was an Imperial soldier at one point. If the frame was as you suggest, we'd know exactly who he was and where he came from and his main motivation would be because he was an X. And Kleya isn't doing what she's doing for cultural identity reasons. It might be "personal", but it's not like "I am an X therefore I must fight" like some of the Ghorms tell each other. "Absolutely screw the Empire for what they did to me/the threat they represent!" is not "cultural identity politics", though it may intersect with them if the Empire harmed you because of your cultural or ethnic identity (c.f. Wookies).

I think it was also helpful because the whole Ghorm storyline showed how the Empire didn't actually have any problem with the Ghorms, just they happened to live on a planet the Empire wanted to strip-mine, so it was time to take advantage of existing bigotry and massively amplify it. A lot of modern narratives about identities from fascist or fascist-sympathizer groups centre on "Oh but these are BAD people!" and the Ghorm storyline showed how constructed that sort of narrative is, and disconnected from reality. But also how when that narrative is being pushed, maybe you need to stick together (or arguably, maybe even that won't help you, another valid lesson you could take is "If a fascist government starts talking smack about your ethno-cultural group, get the hell out of dodge!").

 

[Ruin Explorer]

To add to the post re: identity:

You could possibly argue that Andor suggests (thought never outright states) that not having any clear cultural identity makes it easier for you to get sucked into either being part of the fascist regime, but even ol' Syril Karn does have a cultural identity, albeit a weak one, he's a New Yorker Coruscanti - but he seems to somewhat reject that because of his truly awful family. It does seem like a lot of the Imperials either never had cultural identities or have replaced them with "Imperial" (a phenomenon we still see in authoritarian groups today sometimes - especially ones that aren't localized fairly narrowly). But it also seems to suggest not having a clear/strong cultural identity might make it easier for you to fully commit to the broader revolution/rebellion, for presumably similar reasons. You won't go "Oh good Ghorm is free, time to go home and sit around in a very soft sweater", you'll keep fighting because the rebellion is what you have. So I think it's kind of a balanced equation?

(Also I feel like an insane person that a STAR WARS show of all things is making us have this discussion lol. If you told me we'd get a show like Andor 20 years ago, I'd have said you'd got overly obsessed with WEG D6 Star Wars and needed to get real, it was gonna be all Jedi, Sith, Mandalorians and the like all the time from here out!)

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

No, he was wrong about that too.

Saw was more of a threat to the Rebellion than he was to the Empire.

How was he wrong about the hypocrisy of the Rebellion?

 

[billd91]

To add to the post re: identity:

You could possibly argue that Andor suggests (thought never outright states) that not having any clear cultural identity makes it easier for you to get sucked into either being part of the fascist regime, but even ol' Syril Karn does have a cultural identity, albeit a weak one, he's a New Yorker Coruscanti - but he seems to somewhat reject that because of his truly awful family. It does seem like a lot of the Imperials either never had cultural identities or have replaced them with "Imperial" (a phenomenon we still see in authoritarian groups today sometimes - especially ones that aren't localized fairly narrowly).

Yes, totalitarian states want their subjects to submit to the their dominant preferred identity - whether Soviet, Nazi, Christian Nationalist, PsyCorps, or Imperial. Any other identity is usually detested and marked for oppression/obliteration or at least keeping at a distance because the totalitarian state doesn't want any of its subject to look to any other authority for validation or comfort. Imperial representatives exhibiting an Imperial culture is, I think, spot on. Now, that Imperial culture may be based on cultural values or behavior of Coruscant originally and probably promulgated through the bureaucracy and militaries, and corrupted through consolidation of dictatorial power.

 

[Necropolitan]

I think this is a pretty spectacular and complete misreading of Andor lol, especially if you know anything about Tony Gilroy.

It's not, but feel free to explain how.

Luthen and Saw alienated all their allies through unnecessary 'necessary evils' and ended up getting themselves killed because they were convinced that their way was the only way that would work.

Their methods were shown to backfire time and again.

As mentioned Saw made himself more of a problem for the Rebels than the Empire with his constant thefts from and sabotage of other Rebels and his brutality alienated those who might have otherwise helped the Rebellion.

The enemy won't surrender if you'll kill them regardless of whether they surrender or not. Saw murdered surrending Imperials.

Attacking civilian targets serves no strategic purpose, immoral, and damages the Rebellion's reputation. Saw targeted civilians for being Imperials regardless of what they'd done or were doing. Heck, he counted being related to an Imperial as being a valid target in his book.

Given the option between delivering aid or blowing up an Imperial daycare Saw would choose the latter because his motive was hurting the Empire and vindicating his own beliefs, not helping people.

Meanwhile Luthen's paranoia resulted in him murdering people who could have helped the Rebellion with the resulting trail of bodies leading the Empire to his door.

He decided Andor was a liability and rather than even attempt to sway him to his side his first move was to murder him. Every time he was finished with a source of information or funding he murdered them.

About half of Luthen's plotlines in Andor were him trying to deal with the consquences of his last attempt to avoid dealing with the consquences.

Luthen and Saw were used to deconstruct the idea of "Hard Men Making Hard Choices" because them being "Hard Men" meant they were unable to form solid alliances with others and their "Hard Choices" blew up in their faces.

 

[briggart]

Luthen and Saw alienated all their allies through unnecessary 'necessary evils' and ended up getting themselves killed because they were convinced that their way was the only way that would work.

The rebellion is a much larger operation with political, military, and intelligence branches, while Luthen and Kleyla is just espionage and black-ops, so they likely end up missing the forest for the trees.

But we know from Rogue One that the rebellion is not shy about following Luthen's playbook. Draven ordering Cassian to kill Galen Erso is a prime example. Or Cassian's "we have all done horrible things for the rebellion" speech to Jyn before the mission to Scarif.

And in Andor we are shown how Luthen's methods are necessary. Mon Mothma would have been captured if left to Bail Organa's plan, Lonni would have been burned and never have the chance to uncover the Death Star project if Anton Kreeger had been warned the empire knew of the raid.

So in the end, the Luthen - rebellion rift felt a bit artificial, or at least driven as much by the big egos of the people involved rather than by strong ideological disagreement on methods.

Meanwhile Luthen's paranoia resulted in him murdering people who could have helped the Rebellion with the resulting trail of bodies leading the Empire to his door.

He decided Andor was a liability and rather than even attempt to sway him to his side his first move was to murder him. Every time he was finished with a source of information or funding he murdered them.

Cassian definitely was a liability. He made it clear several times he was in only for the money so he could disappear after having killed the two security officers on Morlana, and didn't want to join the rebellion. And he actually did that, leaving with his cut after the heist.

IMO, Luthen did not think Cassian could be a traitor (we have seen Rogue One so we know he isn't), but the risk of him being captured and forced to reveal what he knew was too great. The empire knew who Cassian was and he was not willing to leave his family behind to disappear cleanly. He changed his mind and decided to join Luthen only after the empire came directly after his family and friends. And the reason he broke with Luthen in the end was about Bix.

Ty was blackmailing Mon Mothma. At the very least, his behavior at the wedding showed he was too emotionally unstable to be trusted to keep his mouth shut.

About half of Luthen's plotlines in Andor were him trying to deal with the consquences of his last attempt to avoid dealing with the consquences.

I only can see the bug into Scunden's art piece fitting into this definition. We didn't see any actual fallout from things like Ty murder.
What we see is that Luthen gets more and more isolated, but again we are also shown he is actually effective and the rebellion has no qualms following methods when they believe it necessary, so to me it falls somewhat flat.