Spoilers Star Wars: Andor season 2

[Voadam]

Hell, even Saw is doing it because of the fact that it limits his freedoms more than anything else as far as his ideology.

"You have no idea where my ideology is"

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I just finished watching Andor, and I'm pretty impressed and moved by it. It has managed to kind of overwrite Star Wars (which I'm generally luke-warm on) for me; Andor is now the "real" story about the fight against the empire, with the OT as a kind of side-plot. It implicitly changes the whole metaphysics of Star Wars: Yes, the emperor is a sith, but really, that's just coincidental.

That the emperor was a Sith was a concern for Jedi and Force-sensitive beings. I don't think your average Empire citizen actually cared. Some admirals famously didn't care about Vader being a Sith, they probably felt the same about the Emperor. He took power using rather mundane means and probably didn't use magical powers to stay in office after that.

As has been said, he could be anyone, and the empire would be just as evil. If the emperor was a Jedi who wants to bring order to the galaxy, it wouldn't be any better.

Yes, it's a story about an organisation, not a heroic hillbilly blowing up a moon-sized battlestation.

The one thing that slightly bugs me about the series is that it frames rebellion mostly as cultural identity politics ("We are the Ghorm!" - "If we are not the Ghorm, what is there left to fight for?"). There's a lot of other good reasons to fight for than you cultural identity - you can oppose fascism on a purely political level (which is probably true of Luthen); the struggle against it can even be class struggle. Cultural identity is the easiest category to fall back on, but I think it's also among the most problematic ones.

I think the focus was about the Ghorm because the story followed Andor, who was sent on this particular mission. I thought that Luthen was probably managing several plots in parallel, all pushing toward a full-blown rebellion, and potentially not relying on the same feeling each one. It was cultural identity on Ghorm, but it might have been reduction of the equity of the judicial process elsewhere, alien segregation on a third world, and the decrease of speed limit on interstate highways during tropical storm season on a fourth. I see the Rebellion as a hodge-podge.

 

[Swanosaurus]

I think the focus was about the Ghorm because the story followed Andor, who was sent on this particular mission. I thought that Luthen was probably managing several plots in parallel, all pushing toward a full-blown rebellion, and potentially not relying on the same feeling each one. It was cultural identity on Ghorm, but it might have been reduction of the equity of the judicial process elsewhere, alien segregation on a third world, and the decrease of speed limit on interstate highways during tropical storm season on a fourth. I see the Rebellion as a hodge-podge.

You're right, I think the Ghorm thing is what stuck with me towards the end.
Overall I think there were just two Episodes I didn't really care for that much, and that were the first two of season 2. I just couldn't get into the whole stealing an experimental TIE fighter thing and the weird antics of the incompetent bunch of ... er ... rebels? ... not sure ... on that forest planet. After that, I actually stopped for a while watching - then, with the 3rd episode of S2, I was hooked again.

 

[chuckdee]

You're right, I think the Ghorm thing is what stuck with me towards the end.
Overall I think there were just two Episodes I didn't really care for that much, and that were the first two of season 2. I just couldn't get into the whole stealing an experimental TIE fighter thing and the weird antics of the incompetent bunch of ... er ... rebels? ... not sure ... on that forest planet. After that, I actually stopped for a while watching - then, with the 3rd episode of S2, I was hooked again.

I think that was important because it established that the rebellion was not a well organized and put together thing all over, which would contrast with both (a) Luthen's operation and that time, and (b) the rebellion later.

These things helped to show that the Rebellion was also being hypocritical towards Luthen, and that Saw, for all his blustering and idiosyncracies, was right.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I think that was important because it established that the rebellion was not a well organized and put together thing all over, which would contrast with both (a) Luthen's operation and that time, and (b) the rebellion later.

These things helped to show that the Rebellion was also being hypocritical towards Luthen, and that Saw, for all his blustering and idiosyncracies, was right.

It also shows what human beings, when stripped of the framework/support/construct of civilisation, and left on their own to fill in the blanks, descend to.

 

[Necropolitan]

These things helped to show that the Rebellion was also being hypocritical towards Luthen, and that Saw, for all his blustering and idiosyncracies, was right.

Saw wasn't right.

His selfishness, inability to work as part of an alliance, general abrasiveness, and refusal to abide by any moral or ethical limits ended up alienating all potential allies and got him and his entire cell killed.

The only difference between Saw and the Rebels in the tie fighter episode was that Saw had charisma and the ability to plan.

Saw's brutality was just cathartic violence and completely unnecessary. He chose harming what he hated over actual progress.

He stole resources and people from other rebel groups and acted like an entitled jerk every time he was told he needed to work together with others, making it clear he didn't believe anyone except him deserved to be leader. If he thought murdering the other Rebel leaders would put him in charge he would have done it.

As for Luthen, even if his methods could be argued to be necessary they ensured nobody involved would ever trust him and that would carry over to the Rebellion itself. He murdered anyone who outlived their usefulness and might be a liability, which is the exact same policy the Empire abides by.

Why would anyone agree to jeopardize themselves to help the Rebellion if they're in as much danger from the Rebellion as the Empire? Luthen's operating methods were pragmatic, but so heartless that it guaranteed they would inevitably blow up in his face. Which they did. Turns out murdering everyone who outlives their usefulness leaves a helpful trail of bodies for the people trying to find you.

Heck, if Luthen had his way Andor would have been murdered.

 

[chuckdee]

Saw wasn't right.

He was right about the Rebellion and their hypocrisy.

 

[Necropolitan]

He was right about the Rebellion and their hypocrisy.

No, he was wrong about that too.

Saw was more of a threat to the Rebellion than he was to the Empire.

 

[Vael]

The one thing that slightly bugs me about the series is that it frames rebellion mostly as cultural identity politics ("We are the Ghorm!" - "If we are not the Ghorm, what is there left to fight for?"). There's a lot of other good reasons to fight for than you cultural identity - you can oppose fascism on a purely political level (which is probably true of Luthen); the struggle against it can even be class struggle. Cultural identity is the easiest category to fall back on, but I think it's also among the most problematic ones.

Consequently, I just love everything about this series that's about Mon Mothma. Actually, they should have called it Star Wars: Mothma!

Note though that the Ghorm were being specifically singled out and targeted and their very culture used against them, that was what the bit with the propagandists back in that initial meeting were all about.

The same thing happened in the first season, with that Imperial talking about how simple (and smelly) the Aldhani were, which made oppressing them easy.

I dunno, what Andor did so brilliantly was such strong world-building, I feel I know Chandrilla, Ferrix, Aldhani and Ghorman better than a lot of other core Star Wars worlds. Chandrillan culture is also front and center in Mon Mothma's story. Marva's plea to her people was rooted in Ferrix culture, during the Ghorman massacre we get Cassian and Wilmon saying "Stone and Sky" to each other. Part of the strength of Andor is the sense that all these characters come from places and what that means for them. And the Rebellion is all about drawing them together.

 

[Celebrim]

Why would anyone agree to jeopardize themselves to help the Rebellion if they're in as much danger from the Rebellion as the Empire? Luthen's operating methods were pragmatic, but so heartless that it guaranteed they would inevitably blow up in his face. Which they did. Turns out murdering everyone who outlives their usefulness leaves a helpful trail of bodies for the people trying to find you.

Heck, if Luthen had his way Andor would have been murdered.

Yeah, by the end I had nothing but hatred for Luthen and felt nothing at this death. He turned out to not be the man he seemed to be, which I guess isn't technically surprising, but still is disappointing. Things "worked out" for him it felt largely by dramatic convenience and because his enemies were stupid and not because he was this important mastermind central to the rebellion. The story wants us to believe how important he was, but by the end of season two I was left doubting that.