Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
That's not at all what I said. I mean if you're going to give fighters something not at all their thing like climbing in order to keep up, why not flying? Why not give them the ability to phase through walls?okay, so the base argument was about the capabilities of fighters and how they don't keep up at high levels without relying on supernatural workarounds right? but then you immediately deny the fighter the mere capability to reliably climb things? wow! i wonder why they're not keeping up?
I don't wonder why they don't keep up because of flying. That's your Strawman of my argument. My argument is that you can give them things that allow them to keep up, but it ain't gonna be climbing and jumping. It's going to be supernatural things or they aren't keeping up. They're just getting a little bit better and all the same complaints are going to happen.
So no fighter is accurately shooting arrows at every creature in a 20 foot radius in under 6 seconds without it being supernatural, let alone throwing axes. Aaaaand, that's not going to come close to matching a fireball. 8d6 to every creature in a 20 foot radius > than 1d8(maybe) to every creature in a 20 foot radius.i wasn't getting at anything about matching the utility of a wizard or a cleric per-se, just the point you claimed that any high level abilities of the fighter would inherently become supernatural, i was getting at that the fighter doesn't need magic razor wind to match a fireball when they can launch an entire volley of arrows or throwing axes by themselves, personally i see combat as the main point of a fighter so maybe i was focusing a little more on damage then utility, because i expect a fighter to outclass casters in combat.
So your idea of a high level fighter ability is a far weaker ability than a 3rd level wizard spell. And it's going to be supernatural in origin even at that. You might as well embrace the supernatural aspect and go greater than 1d8(maybe, since you have to roll to hit).
Wow. Breaking something that long up into multiple sentences will help a lot in understanding what you are saying.people don't consider goading strike supernatural at all, marking an opponent, but it's basically a taunt for all intents, mechanics and purposes, just give them more capability to do that, and against multiple opponents at once, goading strike is the 1st level spell of a martial's capabilities, only they never get higher level spell slots to 'cast it with' they're stuck with that 1st level spell capabilities their entire campaign, sure the BM maneuvre die goes up but that's only really comparable to a caster increasing their casting stat, what does the 5th level casting of goading strike look like, what does the 9th level casting of it look like?
Goading Strike is clearly supernatural since it you have to make a wisdom save or have your willpower overcome and be forced against your will to attack the fighter or suffer disadvantage on attacks. If it wasn't supernatural, it wouldn't be anywhere close to reliable.
Or not. Ignoring your Strawman that I claimed it was Charm Person and your subsequent response to the fictional argument, I said it would have to be some sort of mind control to be able to be performed reliably. There are no mundane words that could ever cause me to attack someone OR suffer disadvantage if I try to punch someone else. That applies to the vast majority of people, especially strangers for whom the fighter has no known personal information.if it was charm person a 9th level goading strike would be able to target 9 enemies, inflicting all with disadvantage when targeting other players if they failed their saves.
I don't know what "naff" is with regard to jumping. There are other alternatives, though, that fighter could get within the rules. The skill for jumping already allows people to jump farther than their base strength in distance, but it doesn't clearly specify how. Fighters could get a bonus to those rules and therefore jump farther, and potentially much farther. However, jumping 20 feet into the air isn't mundane, no matter how mundane normal jumping is.i think alot of the failings of martial abilities are tied to the fact that well, they need more access to the middleground abilities between the rules for the basic capabilities of adventurers and the 'magic solution', take jumping, the jumping rules are naff, but the only alternatives are the Jump spell, magic items or abilities specific to certain classes/creatures, if you gave all the martials the inherent properties of Jump they'd still feel pretty mundane, cause even if they#re leaping 20ft into the air jumping is mundane and in these kinds of fantasy world we expect some exaggeration of capabilities, then all the other classes have the standard jumping rules but the Jump spell also exists for them, which is the point of it, to make the characters who aren't good at jumping good at it.
The world record standing high jump is 5'7". The running high jump world record is 8'0.46". Jumping 20 feet into the air 20 feet is quasi-magical.
Not only that, but jumping 20 feet or even 100 feet isn't going to solve the issue. The issue with martials is utility and jumping isn't anywhere close enough to being the kind of utility required.