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D&D 5E Running 5e at high Levels

Oofta

Legend
I've run a few campaigns to level 20 now, not sure what I do different but I don't find them that much more difficult to balance than mid level games. I do use the alternate rest rules, so it's easy to push resource expenditure; I set up scenarios where they simply can't take a week off to recuperate and recover*. So go ahead cast that 9th level spell, it's going to be a while until you get it back.

Scrying and teleport can be countered fairly easily by the high level opponents the PCs are tracking. Even then, scrying doesn't necessarily tell them much. Yep, you see the target from a drone up to 10 feet away. It doesn't reveal their location unless something happens to come into focus. Odds are they aren't doing anything of interest in the 10 minutes the spell lasts unless I want to reveal information to keep things moving. While I limit teleportation and plane shift for multiple reasons, there are also permanent spells that block those spells as well.

Combat encounters are always something that you simply need to know the capabilities of your group to judge. Throw an ancient red dragon at a party where the wizard always preps fire spells to the exclusion of all other types of damage and the group may have a bad day. I try to mix things up now and then, throw multiple enemies from multiple directions, put opponents in that will be challenging and fun for all the different PCs to engage. I also make custom monsters, such as doing things like doubling attack bonus and at least doubling damage for relatively low level creatures while not changing anything else. So they're not minions, which never made a lot of sense, but they fit the same concept.

I could go on, if you care I wrote up the following a while back
Suggestions:
  • Use better tactics. Take advantage of cover and environment. For example small foes can use small tunnels with tiny openings that are too small for medium size creatures to go through.
  • Send waves. At higher levels wizards can do a lot of damage, so don't send all the foes at once.
  • Flank. Related to sending in waves, have weaker foes run in from the obvious direction while the real foes come around the back
  • Illusion. That BBEG? Well it's an illusion. The real BBEG is hiding around the corner. Note if a target isn't legitimate for a spell, I don't make the caster expend a spell slot. So if they try to banish the illusion it doesn't work but they also don't use the spell slot.
  • If fighting animal intelligence monsters, they're likely just looking for food. After a PC is knocked unconscious, take them off into the bushes to be eaten in quiet.
  • Number of combats between rests. It really does help to have 6-8 encounters with only 1-2 short rests. I use the alternate rules where a short rest is overnight and a long rest is a week or more because it works better for my campaign pacing. But if you have multiple fights, the wizard is going to hold off on that meteor storm until it's really effective. We also frequently have multiple game sessions without a long rest - people do need to take notes of where the left off.
  • Obstacles/goals other than killing stuff. Too often it's go there kill the bad guy. What if you have to instead save the prince? What if your could survive but the prince is squishy? How do you protect him.
  • Use custom monsters. Follow the guide in the DMG to make new monsters, they're frequently much tougher than what's listed in the MM. Or depending on budget look at 3rd party books like Kobold Press's Tome of Monsters.



Specifically for higher levels, things that I do are (I mix and match the below a lot)
  • Monsters have advantage on a regular basis. I justify it multiple ways, or just secretly roll it.
  • Do more damage. Not just more damage, but more types of damage. Particularly useful for my wife's half-orc character that has resistance to weapon damage. The BBEG has a sword made of lightning.
  • Attack more. Bonus actions or just multiple attacks.
  • Attacks that do more than damage. Taking people out of the fight is boring, but restraining them with a giant tentacle that is slowly crushing them? Go for it.
  • Transformations. This one is a little trickier (and to do justice would take more time than I have) but instead of making monsters big bags of HP, have them change at certain points. At a 2/3 of their HP they lose some AC but start blindly flailing getting more attacks at a bonus. At 1/3 their HP their acidic/demonic blood is spraying everywhere causing automatic damage (or constitution save for half). When they die they explode.
  • Spiritual allies. Instead of giving a monster minions that can be killed, they send out spiritual allies (inspired by a cleric's spiritual weapon) that can attack as a bonus action
  • Counterspell. This one can be annoying if overused, but give the enemy casters counterspell. If you really want to be mean, the enemy caster is a sorcerer that can cast without verbal or somatic so their counter can't be countered.
  • Ranged attacks. Almost all creatures have effective range attacks or can get to people that are flying away.
  • Different saves. I make up a lot of monsters. So sometimes it's going to be strength saves, sometimes it's going to be intelligence and so on. I don't pick on individuals, but I do try to vary what I'm targeting.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the general topic. I don't really have a solution for the travel hither and yon aspect, other than to occasionally bring it back home. Combats will often take longer, a lot of it just depends on players. As much as I give advice and options for players on how to resolve their turns faster (e.g. roll all dice at the same time, roll ahead, remind people they're next so they can plan ahead, use average damage and so on), some people are resistant to doing anything different.

Perhaps consider breaking up combats sometimes? The BBEG flees and there has to be a skill challenge or other obstacles while you hunt them down? That may work better in my game because the alternate rest rules apply to PCs and NPCs alike.

In any case, good luck! I've had a lot of fun with high level campaigns, it lets me as a DM just go gonzo and throw all sorts of crazy stuff at the group and have fun as they figure out how to defeat my over the top adversaries.

*I kind of wish there was a way to take a partial long rest to get some long rest resources back, it would help balance out short and long rest classes for me. But that's a separate topic.
 

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TheSword

Legend
I'm running a 17th level 5E campaign. Most of the players have never played at this kind of level. They're only now discovering the possibilities of scrying, divination, wish, etc. Adjustment to Wish have done wonders for abuse of that spell (I never relished the "deliberately misinterpret the wording to nerf the spell" school of thinking), but still leaves the problem to contend with of opening the vast majority of spells to the party.

Scrying I see as more of an opportunity than a game-breaker. They've been subject to it multiple times, and it always freaks them out. Whenever they use it for themselves, it's always a fun chance to reveal just enough to make the spell worth using, but not so much it short-cuts entire sessions.

Challenging them overall is a matter of setting what seems like an impossible task, and letting them roll. Don't be afraid to curtail game-breaking effects. The party has had 17 levels to enjoy teleporting about the place; I feel no guilt making it a risky proposition in the area of the Underdark where the campaign is reaching its conclusion. Alternatively, give the players a reason not to short-circuit a location. The paladin in my group correctly suspects that the last gem required to acvtivate his dormant Holy Avenger may well be in a hidden vault somewhere near their current location. He would certainly balk at the idea of a long-range teleport into the next adventure.

Challenging them in combat is (as I see it) a simple matter of ensuring there are goals that don't revolve around killing a foe. Keep this NPC alive. Stop that thing from collapsing. Slow down this thing so xyz can heppn before it arrives. Make the monsters an environmental hazard, not the goal. This has been my go-to design ethic for some time.

Where the monsters are the goal, just build something you think will be impossible to kill, and proceed to be amazed at the ingenuity and resilience of your players. This means being prepared to watch hours of careful prep go up in flames in 2 rounds. Be prepared to adjust the encounter on the fly (I know this is anathema to some DM's) with extra monster waves, or other effects that you can turn on or off as needed. Then again, when players hear they face-rolled what you assumed would be a deadly fight, it certainly puts a smile on their faces.
Love this.

Though to be honest they’re a smart bunch and have been scrying since Encounter in Blackwall Keep.

I really enjoy when they employ those kinds of methods. It’s a great opportunity for exposition. They Scryed the location of Allustan’s apprentice in Black Wall keep and saw Ilthane land at at the Lizardfolk village. That set the tone for the whole first half of the AP and it was awesome they got to defeat her at the end of the first half. That encounter defined the campaign - ironic as in the previous part they had taken Banner of the Wyrmbane as their team name. It’s worked really well.
 

TheSword

Legend
I've run a few campaigns to level 20 now, not sure what I do different but I don't find them that much more difficult to balance than mid level games. I do use the alternate rest rules, so it's easy to push resource expenditure; I set up scenarios where they simply can't take a week off to recuperate and recover*. So go ahead cast that 9th level spell, it's going to be a while until you get it back.

Scrying and teleport can be countered fairly easily by the high level opponents the PCs are tracking. Even then, scrying doesn't necessarily tell them much. Yep, you see the target from a drone up to 10 feet away. It doesn't reveal their location unless something happens to come into focus. Odds are they aren't doing anything of interest in the 10 minutes the spell lasts unless I want to reveal information to keep things moving. While I limit teleportation and plane shift for multiple reasons, there are also permanent spells that block those spells as well.

Combat encounters are always something that you simply need to know the capabilities of your group to judge. Throw an ancient red dragon at a party where the wizard always preps fire spells to the exclusion of all other types of damage and the group may have a bad day. I try to mix things up now and then, throw multiple enemies from multiple directions, put opponents in that will be challenging and fun for all the different PCs to engage. I also make custom monsters, such as doing things like doubling attack bonus and at least doubling damage for relatively low level creatures while not changing anything else. So they're not minions, which never made a lot of sense, but they fit the same concept.

I could go on, if you care I wrote up the following a while back
Suggestions:
  • Use better tactics. Take advantage of cover and environment. For example small foes can use small tunnels with tiny openings that are too small for medium size creatures to go through.
  • Send waves. At higher levels wizards can do a lot of damage, so don't send all the foes at once.
  • Flank. Related to sending in waves, have weaker foes run in from the obvious direction while the real foes come around the back
  • Illusion. That BBEG? Well it's an illusion. The real BBEG is hiding around the corner. Note if a target isn't legitimate for a spell, I don't make the caster expend a spell slot. So if they try to banish the illusion it doesn't work but they also don't use the spell slot.
  • If fighting animal intelligence monsters, they're likely just looking for food. After a PC is knocked unconscious, take them off into the bushes to be eaten in quiet.
  • Number of combats between rests. It really does help to have 6-8 encounters with only 1-2 short rests. I use the alternate rules where a short rest is overnight and a long rest is a week or more because it works better for my campaign pacing. But if you have multiple fights, the wizard is going to hold off on that meteor storm until it's really effective. We also frequently have multiple game sessions without a long rest - people do need to take notes of where the left off.
  • Obstacles/goals other than killing stuff. Too often it's go there kill the bad guy. What if you have to instead save the prince? What if your could survive but the prince is squishy? How do you protect him.
  • Use custom monsters. Follow the guide in the DMG to make new monsters, they're frequently much tougher than what's listed in the MM. Or depending on budget look at 3rd party books like Kobold Press's Tome of Monsters.



Specifically for higher levels, things that I do are (I mix and match the below a lot)
  • Monsters have advantage on a regular basis. I justify it multiple ways, or just secretly roll it.
  • Do more damage. Not just more damage, but more types of damage. Particularly useful for my wife's half-orc character that has resistance to weapon damage. The BBEG has a sword made of lightning.
  • Attack more. Bonus actions or just multiple attacks.
  • Attacks that do more than damage. Taking people out of the fight is boring, but restraining them with a giant tentacle that is slowly crushing them? Go for it.
  • Transformations. This one is a little trickier (and to do justice would take more time than I have) but instead of making monsters big bags of HP, have them change at certain points. At a 2/3 of their HP they lose some AC but start blindly flailing getting more attacks at a bonus. At 1/3 their HP their acidic/demonic blood is spraying everywhere causing automatic damage (or constitution save for half). When they die they explode.
  • Spiritual allies. Instead of giving a monster minions that can be killed, they send out spiritual allies (inspired by a cleric's spiritual weapon) that can attack as a bonus action
  • Counterspell. This one can be annoying if overused, but give the enemy casters counterspell. If you really want to be mean, the enemy caster is a sorcerer that can cast without verbal or somatic so their counter can't be countered.
  • Ranged attacks. Almost all creatures have effective range attacks or can get to people that are flying away.
  • Different saves. I make up a lot of monsters. So sometimes it's going to be strength saves, sometimes it's going to be intelligence and so on. I don't pick on individuals, but I do try to vary what I'm targeting.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the general topic. I don't really have a solution for the travel hither and yon aspect, other than to occasionally bring it back home. Combats will often take longer, a lot of it just depends on players. As much as I give advice and options for players on how to resolve their turns faster (e.g. roll all dice at the same time, roll ahead, remind people they're next so they can plan ahead, use average damage and so on), some people are resistant to doing anything different.

Perhaps consider breaking up combats sometimes? The BBEG flees and there has to be a skill challenge or other obstacles while you hunt them down? That may work better in my game because the alternate rest rules apply to PCs and NPCs alike.

In any case, good luck! I've had a lot of fun with high level campaigns, it lets me as a DM just go gonzo and throw all sorts of crazy stuff at the group and have fun as they figure out how to defeat my over the top adversaries.

*I kind of wish there was a way to take a partial long rest to get some long rest resources back, it would help balance out short and long rest classes for me. But that's a separate topic.
I should be clear they’ve been playing the high level campaign for the last 20 sessions or so. It’s more that I’ve come to the end of it and am reflecting on it.

It’s all good advice. Definitely worth using.

I guess the fundamental question is how do you stop combat dominating every session when at that level it takes so damn long to play out!
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I should be clear they’ve been playing the high level campaign for the last 20 sessions or so. It’s more that I’ve come to the end of it and am reflecting on it.

It’s all good advice. Definitely worth using.

I guess the fundamental question is how do you stop combat dominating every session when at that level it takes so damn long to play out!
My answer has been consistent for about 15-20 years and it’s stop around 12. Though my 5E experience has been pretty expedient fights at high level. Maybe you can tell us more about the turn by turn particulars of your combats?
 

Oofta

Legend
I should be clear they’ve been playing the high level campaign for the last 20 sessions or so. It’s more that I’ve come to the end of it and am reflecting on it.

It’s all good advice. Definitely worth using.

I guess the fundamental question is how do you stop combat dominating every session when at that level it takes so damn long to play out!

So much depends on the players. I had one player who always rolled one dice at a time and then had trouble remembering the rolls and adding them up. Even for things like fireballs. Me? If I'm playing a PC that has multiple attacks I have color coded dice for my attack and damage and just roll a handful at once. I'll even roll ahead of time, marking down what AC I hit and the corresponding damage ... if something changes and I don't get my attacks I just ignore the ones that didn't matter. But it changes my turn from several minutes of rolling into 30 seconds or so. For the monsters I always use average damage, even averaging dice damage on a crit.

But you can lead a horse to water and all that. Some players will always just be slow when it comes to their turn especially when high level means a lot of options or battles that change dramatically at the last moment. A lot of my fights end with the enemy running, different "win" scenarios than a slog to the death or, as I said above monsters that hit often and hard but are relatively easy to kill.
 

There was another thread recently by Quickleaf (I think) asking for similar advice. I have to find my post in there, but to sum it up, I treat every encounter like the party is going to be fully-rested and so every encounter is serious in terms of threat. This is because, at full resources, a high level party can be counted on to succeed against anything CR 30 or below. Often several times over. This method cuts down on pointless combats and makes even 2-3 combats chained feel like a heroic and legendary gauntlet. I use a lot of other rules though, like Countdowns for Strategic Objectives, Trick Attacks, more conditions, terrain stuff, battlefield assets, to make combat fun and not just stat block vs character sheet. It makes my combats longer (at high levels, a good combat runs 30 minutes to an hour), but it makes the combats very fun and memorable both mechanically and narratively.
 

*I kind of wish there was a way to take a partial long rest to get some long rest resources back, it would help balance out short and long rest classes for me. But that's a separate topic.
We have the Travel Rest which recovers 1/2 HD but then we have abilities that can be sourced by HD and Exhaustion levels (the latter in desperate situations).
 



Quickleaf

Legend
There was another thread recently by Quickleaf (I think) asking for similar advice. I have to find my post in there, but to sum it up, I treat every encounter like the party is going to be fully-rested and so every encounter is serious in terms of threat. This is because, at full resources, a high level party can be counted on to succeed against anything CR 30 or below. Often several times over. This method cuts down on pointless combats and makes even 2-3 combats chained feel like a heroic and legendary gauntlet. I use a lot of other rules though, like Countdowns for Strategic Objectives, Trick Attacks, more conditions, terrain stuff, battlefield assets, to make combat fun and not just stat block vs character sheet. It makes my combats longer (at high levels, a good combat runs 30 minutes to an hour), but it makes the combats very fun and memorable both mechanically and narratively.
It me. ☺️ Actually, I was asking about Tips for Starting at Higher Level because I don't have the wealth of high-level experience you all have. Most of my games have stopped by 13th level or significantly earlier, and I've only played in one 17th level one-shot.
 

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