D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

Swarmkeeper said:

By learning and then casting Wish? Is there some other way?

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"I wish all my spells counted as Wizard cantrips."

whenever an argument is raised about material/somatic components and weapons/shields, I pull up this art:

Chaosmancer said:

I think it is worth pointing out for #1 that while DnD Beyond allows you to take the same cantrip twice, it seems a bit of a stretch to read intent into that. There is literally no circumstance in the entire game where doing so is beneficial. No one would ever do that. So, the fact that the program allows this is equally likely to be a programming artifact because no text was ever written to prevent you from choosing the same cantrip twice. And it wasn't prevented, because it doesn't make any sense to do so.

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There are some cases where duplicate cantrips could be advantageous. A Wizard/Sorcerer whose highest attribute is intelligence could take Firebolt twice. As Wizard to cast with his highest spell attack bonus most of the time, and as Sorcerer to cast with advantage when Innate Sorcery is active.

Hardly worth it, but its not a completely pointless option.

Sorcerers Apprentice said:

There are some cases where duplicate cantrips could be advantageous. A Wizard/Sorcerer whose highest attribute is intelligence could take Firebolt twice. As Wizard to cast with his highest spell attack bonus most of the time, and as Sorcerer to cast with advantage when Innate Sorcery is active.

Hardly worth it, but its not a completely pointless option.

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I wonder if multiple copies of mage hand can create multiple hands?

ECMO3 said:

On an earlier post you claimed that was "fiddly" and uneccesary.

Glad you finally admited it!

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No, that was the single aspect of my point about what was fiddly that you hyper-fixated on and pounded like a drum

ECMO3 said:

Apparantly not as rare as the "90%" of PC that don't do it this way since you have yet to provide ONE example of a PC currently being played.

Your made up Cleric-Wizard-Eldritch Knight hypothetical example was the "strawman", not my actual real PC.

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Fine, you want characters actually being played? Here ya go






I also have a paper sheet for a 6th level Beasthide Shifter Trickery Domain cleric.

I won't provide links to other people's sheets that are not mine to share, but we have a Human Gloomstalker Ranger, Drow Bard/Warlock. Dwarven Wizard, Half-Elf Paladin, Orc Gunslinger (Mercer's), Elf Wizard, Returned Celestial Warlock, Halfling Fathomless Warlock, Tiefling Monk, Harengon Paladin, Human Rogue/Shadow Monk, Human Berserker Barbarian, Kobold Sorcerer, Human Psy Warrior, Elf Dancer Bard, and there is a game starting soon with an Orc Monk, Halfling Thief, Half-Orc Cleric, and potentially a Fairy Bard.

So, now that I have listed 25 characters in actual play who don't use multiple casting stats, I win right? That's how this argument works the most "real" examples win?

Or is this kind of a pointless exercise that you keep hammering on, like somehow my telling you Most people I play with don't multiclass and most of their multiclasses aren't combining multiple casting stats is enough.

ECMO3 said:

But your claim is 90% players don't play this way. Well the 2024 rules have only even been around for 3 months.

So let me ask you this: You refuse to post an example 2024 character, but how many have you actually seen played at all by anoyone that conform to your allegation?

Have you even seen a singe ONE? I am not just talking at a table you are on, what about a you tube game, or a televised game?

You claim 90% are played a certain way, how many times have you witnessed this? If you are not using 2014 examples to butress that, then I think you probably have not seen a single one played this way.

TBH I think the ONE example I provided exceeds ALL of the 2024 multiclassed casters you have seen played COMBINED.

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I've been in three games that use the 2024 rules. Those characters are all listed above. Good enough evidence for you, right?

ECMO3 said:

No I want you to provide examples of real PCs being played.

Ok then admit you were making crap up when you said "90% are ...."

I want you to admit that you have no experience with this, and no basis to actually make a judgement, especially with the 2024 rules, and that you defer to my extensive experience in this regard.

That is what I would like you to say if you have never really seen this in play at your table, because it would be the truth.

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Oh, moving the goalposts before I even post. Awesome. I knew it was a waste of my time.

ECMO3 said:

No, I just think it is obvious you don't know what you are talking about and making things up and the inability to provide a single example of a PC being played to buttress your claim certainly supports this hypothesis .... as does your own statement that neither you or the tables you play on use multiclassed PCs.

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I hate accusing people of reading comprehension problems, I feel it is rude. But my only other recourse is to assume you are willfully lying, by taking "none of my groups currently have a multi-class character" to mean "No one at tables I play with play multiclass characters"

The game including the Rogue/Gloomstalker Ranger is on hiatus and currently likely to die. The game with the Bard/Warlock the player of that game who is central to the plot is moving states, so that game is dead. The pathfinder game I was in a few years ago with gestalt characters isn't DnD. I could attempt to dredge my entire gaming history, think there was a tabaxi Bladesinger/Rogue/Fighter that someone played once, but he wasn't my character and I didn't care enough to save his character sheet for the last six years.

And again... this proves NOTHING. Except you latched on to a single phrase I said and are beating it like a dead horse that owes you money, screaming about how your are proving me wrong somehow.

ECMO3 said:

My point is the type of character I am talking about is actually played and if you don;t know how people build multiclassed caster PCs then you don't know how PCs build multiclass caster PCs, but that is fundamentally different than claiming "90%" are built this way when in fact you don't know of a single one that is built that way.

Ok then just admit you have no idea how most players play multiclass characters, you were just making things up earlier and kindly bow out of this discussion.

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Seriously, I keep waiting for you to make ANY other point than to crow about how you think I don't know anything because I didn't have a dozen examples of multiclass characters to show you.

But hey, I get it, lists of examples are interesting to you I guess. So here are some more.






Reddit - Dive into anything

I think that is another ten or so multiclasses showing the exact same logic I keep talking about? You likely won't count them as "real" though. At least this only took me two minutes to google.

ECMO3 said:

Ironically you and I personally agree on Constitution proficiency, but that is a minority opinion and the majority of players who play multiclassed casters do want Constitution proficiency, and I have seen enough multiclasses by other players, to include many in 2024, to be confident in that even though I disagree with it from a personal play style on my PCs.

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Really? You didn't list every single mutli-classed character at every single table you've ever played at or seen on a youtube video, so why should I believe you?

ECMO3 said:

I do have some complex builds. I never said they were optimal. The character I linked above is complex, but is certainly NOT optimal.

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Shonk No, you don't say? Why, when I said it wasn't optimal I didn't think that I was right/s

ECMO3 said:

Also they are not just in my mind, they are actually played. When I post about a specific build here it is almost always a build I played or am currently playing. In some cases it is one someone else has played that I witnessed. I think this is the main difference on where I am coming from and where you are coming from. These things are not just builds in my mind.

Regardless though we were talking specifically about multiclassed "complex" caster builds regarding your 90% statistic. Further, this entire thread, which was started by me, is about "complex" multiclassed Eldritch Knight builds. That is the basis for the thread. If your position is based entirely on single classed builds, it is irrelevant to the discussion.

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Yes, you started this thread claiming that Eldritch Knight is bad because you can't play them as a charisma-caster. I'm aware. I think that is a really poor way of looking at the subclass, because it ignores how the subclass is actually played (see, I know a little about this from a Kobold Eldritch Knight played a few years ago, whose character sheet I can't show you because it isn't my property). A take of "this is bad because this one build I want to do doesn't work" isn't a good take.

ECMO3 said:

Finally, I don't think you have enough experience with the 2024 rules to say what most people do or play in general. I am not convinced I know either, but I am convinced based on experience, that your "90%" claim about multiclassed characters is completely bogus.

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Please elucidate me on my expierence with 2024. I'd love to hear how you know the games I've been in better than me.

Chaosmancer said:

Fine, you want characters actually being played? Here ya go

Myth-Weavers Online Character Sheets

Myth-Weavers is an online community that focuses on play by post gaming. We are home to hundreds of active games, many still recruiting. Our character sheet system supports dozens systems, including d20, GURPS, WoD, and even the new D&D5e. Come join our ever-growing community of thousands of...

www.myth-weavers.com

Myth-Weavers Online Character Sheets

Myth-Weavers is an online community that focuses on play by post gaming. We are home to hundreds of active games, many still recruiting. Our character sheet system supports dozens systems, including d20, GURPS, WoD, and even the new D&D5e. Come join our ever-growing community of thousands of...

www.myth-weavers.com

Myth-Weavers Online Character Sheets

Myth-Weavers is an online community that focuses on play by post gaming. We are home to hundreds of active games, many still recruiting. Our character sheet system supports dozens systems, including d20, GURPS, WoD, and even the new D&D5e. Come join our ever-growing community of thousands of...

www.myth-weavers.com

Myth-Weavers Online Character Sheets

Myth-Weavers is an online community that focuses on play by post gaming. We are home to hundreds of active games, many still recruiting. Our character sheet system supports dozens systems, including d20, GURPS, WoD, and even the new D&D5e. Come join our ever-growing community of thousands of...

www.myth-weavers.com

Myth-Weavers Online Character Sheets

Myth-Weavers is an online community that focuses on play by post gaming. We are home to hundreds of active games, many still recruiting. Our character sheet system supports dozens systems, including d20, GURPS, WoD, and even the new D&D5e. Come join our ever-growing community of thousands of...

www.myth-weavers.com

I also have a paper sheet for a 6th level Beasthide Shifter Trickery Domain cleric.

I won't provide links to other people's sheets that are not mine to share, but we have a Human Gloomstalker Ranger, Drow Bard/Warlock. Dwarven Wizard, Half-Elf Paladin, Orc Gunslinger (Mercer's), Elf Wizard, Returned Celestial Warlock, Halfling Fathomless Warlock, Tiefling Monk, Harengon Paladin, Human Rogue/Shadow Monk, Human Berserker Barbarian, Kobold Sorcerer, Human Psy Warrior, Elf Dancer Bard, and there is a game starting soon with an Orc Monk, Halfling Thief, Half-Orc Cleric, and potentially a Fairy Bard.

So, now that I have listed 25 characters in actual play who don't use multiple casting stats, I win right? That's how this argument works the most "real" examples win?

Or is this kind of a pointless exercise that you keep hammering on, like somehow my telling you Most people I play with don't multiclass and most of their multiclasses aren't combining multiple casting stats is enough.




I've been in three games that use the 2024 rules. Those characters are all listed above. Good enough evidence for you, right?



Oh, moving the goalposts before I even post. Awesome. I knew it was a waste of my time.



I hate accusing people of reading comprehension problems, I feel it is rude. But my only other recourse is to assume you are willfully lying, by taking "none of my groups currently have a multi-class character" to mean "No one at tables I play with play multiclass characters"

The game including the Rogue/Gloomstalker Ranger is on hiatus and currently likely to die. The game with the Bard/Warlock the player of that game who is central to the plot is moving states, so that game is dead. The pathfinder game I was in a few years ago with gestalt characters isn't DnD. I could attempt to dredge my entire gaming history, think there was a tabaxi Bladesinger/Rogue/Fighter that someone played once, but he wasn't my character and I didn't care enough to save his character sheet for the last six years.

And again... this proves NOTHING. Except you latched on to a single phrase I said and are beating it like a dead horse that owes you money, screaming about how your are proving me wrong somehow.



Seriously, I keep waiting for you to make ANY other point than to crow about how you think I don't know anything because I didn't have a dozen examples of multiclass characters to show you.

But hey, I get it, lists of examples are interesting to you I guess. So here are some more.






Reddit - Dive into anything

I think that is another ten or so multiclasses showing the exact same logic I keep talking about? You likely won't count them as "real" though. At least this only took me two minutes to google.



Really? You didn't list every single mutli-classed character at every single table you've ever played at or seen on a youtube video, so why should I believe you?



Shonk No, you don't say? Why, when I said it wasn't optimal I didn't think that I was right/s



Yes, you started this thread claiming that Eldritch Knight is bad because you can't play them as a charisma-caster. I'm aware. I think that is a really poor way of looking at the subclass, because it ignores how the subclass is actually played (see, I know a little about this from a Kobold Eldritch Knight played a few years ago, whose character sheet I can't show you because it isn't my property). A take of "this is bad because this one build I want to do doesn't work" isn't a good take.



Please elucidate me on my expierence with 2024. I'd love to hear how you know the games I've been in better than me.

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Veterans tend to MC more than newer players. Beyond that I make no claims and it's anecdotal.

clearstream said:

That doesn't correctly follow my argument (see my #380). In a nutshell I'm saying that the reason some features that let you cast spells specify "your" and others do not, is that some features grant you spells (Spellcasting is an example) and others apply to spells granted to you by other features (Agonizing Blast and War Magic are both examples.)

The word "your" is used consistently in the latter type of feature, to say - this will let you do something regarding spells you have in virtue of some other feature but it won't grant you any spells. It's reasonable text to include.

Whether or not the rules ought to specify that you must own a potion in order to drink it, they do specify that

"Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind..."​

​

One reason the designers may have been motivated to expressly state that is that where using objects if close to ordinary experience, casting spells is not. But whatever their motivation, they included text specifying that when it comes to spells, you have to know them before you can use them. The text goes on to read

"Your features specify which spells you have access to, if any..."​

​

Reinforcing the point that characters expressly gain spells by virtue of some features, while other features let them use those spells in different ways but do not grant them. To say "your Wizard spells" places War Magic in the second category, and further narrows it to only spells gained from the Wizard list just in case a character has access to multiple lists.

In summary, my #378 showed what the text would look like without "your". It would look like (or at least be ambiguous and potentially mistaken for) a feature that granted the ability to cast wizard cantrips rather than one that did something with the ability to cast wizard cantrips granted by some other feature. Even were an EK to somehow lack Spellcasting, War Magic would continue to function so long as they had some other "Wizard cantrips" such as from an Elven Lineage.

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But War Magic does use "your", and even if it didn't, it isn't a feature that grants spells, and no one would realistically believe that it is supposed to. You'd basically be running into bad faith rules lawyers trying to make an exploit based on a bad faith reading.

So I don't really see what the point of this tangent is, since it isn't even how the text is written, and no one acting in good faith would allow the casting of spells you don't know.

clearstream said:

Maybe our views are nearer than they seem. With the adjustment to "works with all spells and cantrips learned from the wizard spell list" I would agree with the sense of this. That removes the ambiguity of what is meant by "from" -- it cannot mean merely "on" for the mechanical reasons I gave up thread.

The exact tracking is managed by some VTTs, but at the table I expect groups will often just look at what list the spell is on, and much of the time - as you say - that will work out.

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If you wanted to limit it to only spells learned from the wizard spell list, I wouldn't say you are factually wrong for doing so. It is a valid reading.

I just... don't think it needs to be limited like that. Whenever you level, you can swap spells around, especially cantrips. I don't see a power problem with allowing a character who learned Fire Bolt as an Artificer from using the War Magic ability, especially since we can see that the "wizard cantrip" limitation does not exist for Valor Bard, nor did it exist on the Bladesinger wizard.

It is a valid limitation if you want to add it, but I don't see a reason to add it, other than a strict RAW reading of the class feature.

Sorcerers Apprentice said:

There are some cases where duplicate cantrips could be advantageous. A Wizard/Sorcerer whose highest attribute is intelligence could take Firebolt twice. As Wizard to cast with his highest spell attack bonus most of the time, and as Sorcerer to cast with advantage when Innate Sorcery is active.

Hardly worth it, but its not a completely pointless option.

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Except... why are you multiclassing Wizard and Sorcerer? They don't mix and you end up weaker than either by doing so. Especially if you are focusing on Wizard. Like, sure, you can make a weaker attack at advantage this way, but you also could have just played a sorcerer and done that but better.