The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

Yeah, it certainly seems plausible that PF won via only the metrics ICV2 looks at and in the total aggregate picture 4E was still tops.

That all being said, this reminds me of the old Norm Macdonald joke about Germany fighting the world twice "But this time, it was really close". Like, the fact that it was that close is in and of itself notable. The last time D&D was anywhere near that place in the market was in the late 90s when 2E was on life support and TSR ceased to exist.

And this is another reason 4e fans are always so angry.

I can post someone’s video or blog post or Tweet or whatever about 5e sales, or 3e sales, or heck probably how many plastic baggies Gary had to buy at the grocery store in the 1970s, and everyone will nod along and congratulate me for my journalistic digging.

But if I post a well sourced comment about 4e sales: well, see, that’s wrong / irrelevant / doesn’t matter because of various reasons.

Non-4e editions: stated claims generally accepted at face value.
4e edition: stated claims subjected to immediate attack and/or some way to reframe the argument so the claim, even if acknowledged as factually correct, “doesn’t count”.
 

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Pretty sure I didn't do that.
You cited a Norm McDonald joke about Germany getting really close to winning the war and, I quote,

The last time D&D was anywhere near that place in the market [that 4e was] was in the late 90s when 2E was on life support and TSR ceased to exist.

That is exactly this:

stated claims subjected to immediate attack and/or some way to reframe the argument so the claim, even if acknowledged as factually correct, “doesn’t count”.

At last have the courage of your convictions.
 


not being a loss is not the same as not being the worst selling edition. Ben Riggs said as much and he supposedly got the numbers from WotC / Hasbro
Quoting from the article I linked to: "4E was released in June of 2008, with stronger presales and opening sales than 3E, according to both anecdotal gaming store data and Wizards of the Coast (EN World has several articles on this). Sales held strong throughout the edition’s lifetime."
 

You cited a Norm McDonald joke about Germany getting really close to winning the war and, I quote,



That is exactly this:



At last have the courage of your convictions.
Okay.

Me, once we hit the "courage of your convictions" part of the argument about elf game sales:

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For real: What, in any way, makes these things "with different cool down times"?

You have exactly three options. Things you can use all the time, things you have to take a quick rest before you can use again, and things you have to get a good night's sleep to use again. That's literally how all 5e features work too. If 4e gave you that feeling, why doesn't 5e?

As for the latter: I find that at least half the time people claim it was "duplicated across classes", it's only at an extreme, nearly-meaningless level of abstraction. "Oh, that's a power that does damage and slows, therefore EVERY power that does damage and slows is a duplicate of this one!"
If that's all the power does, and the range is the same, isn't that duplicating the power? What makes them different? The name? The sliver of italicized flavor text? The power source? Exactly how much damage?

Look, I have mad respect for the bold choices WotC made in 4e, and especially how they owned those choices and were honest about making something different. But some of these claims hold water.
 

If that's all the power does, and the range is the same, isn't that duplicating the power? What makes them different? The name? The sliver of italicized flavor text? The power source? Exactly how much damage?
Honest question. Disguise self is a spell castable by Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, Artificers, and Trickery Domain Clerics. Despite being mechanically the same, is it the same spell in the fiction?
 

It was NOT inspired by WoW (or guildwars) that is the point. I made a post #58 where I linked to a video from last year where the 2 lead designers stating that this was not the case.

I also linked to a reddit post where I explain in detail why the mechanics are nothing like a WoW if you look closer than just "oh it can only be used after each X". The similarities are only on a really supericial level.

4E was inspired by Soccer, Magic the Gathering (and other trading card games), and wargames (like chainmail). It was verry much made for play in person with physical props (thats why the powers are made for cards. Even the at will daily and encounter structure works best with cards to track it).



Similar your example with powers is wrong and it feels like you never tried to understand the 4E class differences different. Have you ever played Magic the Gathering or a trading card game? Because there also all 5 colours have access to the same "features" (same card types, and same rules and in theory same mechanics). There is also an overlap in cards between colours.


Still it is one of the best designed games and is known for making the colours (and even 2 colour combinations) be really different thanks to their colour pie. And this is a reason almost all modern games copy Magic the Gathering.


Similar to Magic the gathering there is a base which all classes can do. This is deal damage (and in Magic it is having creatures). However there are things which not all colours have access to. Blue has counters and card draw and hard to block creatures. Green also has some card draw, but big creatures and creature enhancements and normally no counters. (There are some specific exceptions but thats too complicated for now). White also has some hard to block creatures (flying, but no unblockable), but is more specialized in having better small creatures. It can only draw single cards. And it can also increase power of creatures, but more wide (several creatures) instead of focused like green.


Similar in D&D 4E different classes had access to different effects. Rogue are specialized in just dealing lot of damage, mostly single target, but as high damage as their main goal they also have some "square" attacks. A fighter on the other side will not just have a damage square attack. And especially not with 2d6. Thats the big difference between weapon attacks and spells in 4E. Spells have fixed damage. Weapon attacks scale with the weapon size and take their properties, weapon attacks might even REQUIRE a specific weapon. While spells dont require speciic implements. (There is a wizard class feature to specialize in a certain implement, but its not specific spells)


Both a wizard and a fighter can deal damage to an enemy and slow them, but for different reasons and in different ways. A fighter can slow enemies standing next to them. To make them not get away from the fighter. The goal is "attack me!"


Wizards can slow enemies at range (several ones at once). They do this to make enemies need more turns to reach the allies at all. So its goal is "Dont attack"


And even with overlap, each (non simplified) class has some really unique abilities. Some of which became really iconic. In 5E a sorcerer has no single unique spell.
Frankly, maybe D&D players didn't want to play an RPG designed like a card game? The two are quite different experiences.
 

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