D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

Theory of Games said:

Magic trumps mundane weapons. Should be simple to understand. If someone feels that imbalances the game, that's a discussion for that person and the people they game with. But, there is no broad "fix" because everyone doesn't see it as a problem

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And it's not a problem for everyone. I completely acknowledge this. When 3.e was in playtesting, they took a lot of steps to make playing casters less of a chore, and saw no problems, because everyone was using their magic the blast or heal.

Then people started playing the game and realized there were way better spells to be using. Even the time-honored tradition of "buff the Fighter to make him stronk" fell to the wayside, because people started realizing you could buff anyone to make them powerful...even that 2HD Wolf the Druid has following her around!

And sadly, 5e's solution to that was to make nobody get good buffs, lol. The few that still exist, well, most casters have better things to do with their concentration, sorry!

I can't comment much on top tier play with D&D2024, having only played through a single level 20 one-shot and watched a few actual play shows. All I can say is that in the game I played, no one felt like their class was underpowered or unable to make significant contributions.

I have DMed a lot of tiers 1 and 2, and a fair bit of lower tier 3, so here's my take on those:

Tier 1: Martial classes are generally stronger than pure casters. Damage dealing, survivability and utility have all been significantly buffed. Casters received minor upgrades...or in some cases downgrades.

Tier 2: More balanced, so it kind of depends on what kind of foe you are facing. Martial classes are much more dependable, but casters start to get spells that, if successful, can totally change an encounter. I would still give martial classes the edge, but it's much closer.

Tier 3: Pretty balanced, though I have less experience to cite, only really up to level 13. Martial classes still dominate when it comes to damage dealing, but pure casters were able to offer way more options, not just in combat but especially outside of combat.

My overall take on D&D 2024 is that martial classes are a bit too dominant at tier 1, especially with players who really understand some of the new features, particularly weapon mastery. After that things even out, though I can't say much about tier 4. Given that the overwhelming majority of games are played at tiers 1-2, I doubt that most players using the current rules are experiencing a problem with martial classes.

CreamCloud0 said:

for me what defines a caster is the amount in which their spells are incorporated into the design and use of their class, to me rangers and paladin are casters because their class is designed to take advantage of their spells and slots as part of their resources, an eldritch knight or arcane trickster are basically full martials but with an asterisk, due to their limited casting capabilities only affecting the execution of their standard procedure of play from say, a battlemaster or a thief a minimal amount. similar logic applies that playing a high elf or taking magic initiate doesn't actually effect how your character would play enough if you hadn't taken those options.
(i realize i'm repeating myself a little but i feel it's for clarity)

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That may be the distinction when you are white rooming it and talking about classes, but when you are talking about actual PCs I think it falls flat and PCs are what is played at the table.

In play Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters are pretty hard core casters at high level because of the abilities they have to give enemies disadvantage on saves almost at will.

In the 2024 games I have seen, high level Eldritch Knights are typically built around Dissonant Whispers and Wrathful Smite from Fey Touched and Shadow Touched respectively and combining this with Action Surge, Trustrike, Green Flame Blade, Booming Blade and Warcaster. This brings a tremendous amount of control to the table.

It looks something like this --> action surge, green flame blade one guy, damage second guy, attack second guy, attack second guy, maybe nick attack second guy, Action Dissonant Whispers on first guy (disadvantage on save), reaction attack on first guy, bonus action wrathful smite on first guy (disadvantage on save). Now the guy is a full move away from you and frightened and can't move back closer. The thing with the frightened guy is if you keep hitting him with one attack he keeps making his save at disadvantage. You can do that exactly like that twice a day with free casts, after you burn your free casts you have to go to doing one or the other, but then you have push you can use instead of Dissonant Whispers - less effective without the disadvantage on the save and using a lower DC but with slightly more damage.

Arcane Tricksters are typically built around Tasha's Hideous Laughter at high levels and mage hand at mid to high levels.

mellored said:

Casting spells isn't a martial thing.

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For most PCs from the Fighter, Monk and Rogue classes I think casting spells is something they do. So I don't believe this is true in actual play.

mellored said:

It won't help champion, Thief, Assassin, Beserker, ect...

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In the 2024 rules every Rogue I have seen played so far, including both Assasin and Thief, has had either Trustrike or one of the TCE Blade cantrips. The highest damage option for Rogues in 5E is these spells, especially Truestrike which works at both ranged and in melee.

The default Rogue for a powergamer in 2024 is a high-elf Assasin with Truestrike and Elven Accuracy.

One of the players we play with even noted that Rogue is a very hard class for a beginner now because it is not intuitive that high intelligence is generally better than high dexterity.

Barbarian is the only class I see regularly that usually (more than 50%) has no spells.

IME Rogues almost all have spells and over half of Fighters and Monks have them.

Minigiant said:

Nope

The easiest way to fix martials is to give them more iconic class features.

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That is not easy, especially if you look across all 20 levels.

I am going to use specific classes here, because Martial is ambiguous and the term caster can not be applied across the board.

You have to actually weaken Fighters and Monks at most levels to be balanced with Druids and Clerics. Not all levels and not at very high levels, but you have to take away features those "martials" already have if you want those two "martials" to be balanced with those two "full casters".

Minigiant said:

The number 1 problem with non-full spellcasters is that they only get 1 class feature each level to make them simple to new players.

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They are not simple at all and aside from the fact the features are often actually spells, they are also more complicated than spells are at that level.

Minigiant said:

They don't even need to be complex. Bonus AC, Speed increases. Additional ASI. Extra saving throw and skill proficiencies.

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In the 2024 rules, Tactical Mind, action suge, tactical shift, deflect attacks, Monk's Focus, martial arts, and some of the weapon masteries are pretty darn complex in play and come on very early, and that is before we go into subclass abilities.

Minigiant said:

A tiny few.

2024 Indomitable is a saving throw reroll with a huge bonus. Probably about worth a 5th level spell.
But not much else on the fighter is that high on its own.

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It is worth more than a 5th level slot at 9th level and at 17th level, when you can use it 3 times with a +17 on the save, it is comparable to some 8th and 9th level spells and way above a 5th level spell.

In play is essentially an automatic save on anything and combines with subclass abilities like Heroic Warrior.

Minigiant said:

Steel wind strike is 5 attacks spread out so maybe the 2-4th level capstone 4 Attack is 5th level.

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An 11th level fighter can do 6 attacks (or 7 with nick) and move 60 feet and this recharges on a short rest.

Minigiant said:

Action Surge 6 attacks is like a 5th 6th or maaaaaaaaybe 7th level spell. But you only get 1 until level 17.

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You get one PER SHORT REST or nominally 3 times a day from level 2-16. Three 5th level spells a day for a full caster comes at 17th level.

Minigiant said:

Extra Attack: At will a 2nd-4th level spell

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When you consider weapon masteries it is way more than a 2nd level spell a few times a day, at 5th level it is more than two 3rd level spells a day..

Minigiant said:

Action Surge: a 1st/3rd/4th/6th level 1-2 times per rest

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2 times per short rest two levels earlier than a Wizard gets a second 6th level spell.

Minigiant said:

Indomitable: 1-3 uses of a 5th level spell.

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At high levels it is much more than a 5th level spell and a full caster does not get 3 5th level spells until 18th level.

ECMO3 said:

That is not easy, especially if you look across all 20 levels.

I am going to use specific classes here, because Martial is ambiguous and the term caster can not be applied across the board.

You have to actually weaken Fighters and Monks at most levels to be balanced with Druids and Clerics. Not all levels and not at very high levels, but you have to take away features those "martials" already have if you want those two "martials" to be balanced with those two "full casters".

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Which is easy

ECMO3 said:

They are not simple at all and aside from the fact the features are often actually spells, they are also more complicated than spells are at that level.

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Nope

+1 AC or +10 ft speed is simple.

ECMO3 said:

In the 2024 rules, Tactical Mind, action suge, tactical shift, deflect attacks, Monk's Focus, martial arts, and some of the weapon masteries are pretty darn complex in play and come on very early, and that is before we go into subclass abilities.

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I'm talking about the added class features.

The easiest fix is extra skill, saving throw, and tool proficiency without a cost and another core damage bonus.

This is why the martial caster problem goes away with good magic items. A +X weapon, +Y armor, and cloak of protection halfway fixes a martial in battle.

Minigiant said:

Which is easy

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So you weaken fighters and Monks in tier 2 to be more in line with Clerics and Druids and now all 4 of them are weaker than Wizards and Sorcerers.

Minigiant said:

The easiest fix is extra skill, saving throw, and tool proficiency without a cost and another core damage bonus.

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Fighters already dominate the other classes in skill checks at low levels and are still pretty darn good at them at high levels. I don't know how making the best class even better at these balances things, especially when they are outrunning other martials (Rogues and Rangers) by such a large margin.

A caster who selects spells specifically for the non-combat pillars can keep up with a fighter in tier 2 in those pillars and really suck at combat. A Rogue can't even do that. They are stuck behind a fighter at lower levels and they will be further behind when you make Fighters better than they already are.

Minigiant said:

This is why the martial caster problem goes away with good magic items. A +X weapon, +Y armor, and cloak of protection halfway fixes a martial in battle.

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This is upside down. Magic favors the casting classes and a lot of the best magic items are restricted to casters. Also magic weapons also do not give the benefits they used to give overcoming damage resistance.

Again martials are the kings of battle through tier 1 and 2 and most of the "non-casters" are better than most of the "full casters" in combat. So you are talking fewer than half the levels where they are behind at all, so I am not sure exactly what you are "fixing".

Theory of Games said:

Magic trumps mundane weapons. Should be simple to understand. If someone feels that imbalances the game, that's a discussion for that person and the people they game with. But, there is no broad "fix" because everyone doesn't see it as a problem

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But like...what does magic actually do better than a weapon? In fact, even talking about magic vs. weapons implies that it's really about damage, but that isn't really much of an issue in 5e as I understand. Fighters do good damage. And it's an easy fix, too - just up the damage.


But, this post below contradicts your take that it's about spell vs. weapon, since it's not actually about spell vs. weapon here:

mellored said:

Because control inherently scales.
Command, or instance, works just as well against a Goblin as a Dragon Turtle.

And a cleric can cast it 6 times vs goblins, and 22 times vs Dragon Turtles.
Thus they scale 4x faster than monsters.

Where a fighter might take 2 turns to kill something at level 1, and 2 turns to kill something at level 20.
They scale the same as monsters.


Thus, my suggestion for less slots (14) at higher level, making casters a mear 2x scaling.

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This implies that it's about action denial, and maybe that martials lack good denial abilities. Which isn't a problem that pumping up weapon damage is going to fix. Still not too hard to fix (weapon masteries do some good work in this regard), but is that enough to bring weapons and spells to parity?

Maybe not...

James Gasik said:

In my experience, it comes down to two things:

1- "Martial" classes (ie, ones that are intended to solve problems with more mundane means, like Attack Actions and skill checks) can encounter situations where neither of these is sufficient to the task.

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...so the problem statement is not about damage or about action denial, but about encounter design...

James Gasik said:

2- The adventuring "day" is too short to compete with "I Win" buttons spellcasters have access to. Most games I've been in, people think "adventuring day" means "in-game day", because that's logical and makes sense to them. You sleep 6-8 hours every day, surely that's a Long Rest, right? But when you run the game that way, you're not always going to have a bunch of encounters. Traveling from point A to point B, you might encounter some wandering monster on Day 2 of 4. Or bandits. Or anything, really. Even if the DM tunes the encounter up, knowing it's likely going to be the only one the players face, when the casters can just toss out their most effective spells, some of whom can just trivialize the encounter, non-casters can feel completely overshadowed.

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...or the problem is not about damage or action denial or encounter design but about resource management...?

Which is part of why these threads reach 40 pages. There's never going to be a solution that satisfies all of these competing and often unstated interests. "Martials are weak" feels a Rorschach test, folks are going to see what they want to see.

Theory of Games said:

Magic trumps mundane weapons. Should be simple to understand. If someone feels that imbalances the game, that's a discussion for that person and the people they game with. But, there is no broad "fix" because everyone doesn't see it as a problem

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I'd say it is broadly seen as a problem but nobody agrees on the best solution.