D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

[ECMO3]

Like @CreamCloud0 said, the first two are martials. The High Elf Fighter (Champion) is also martial, one that benefits from the use of some spell-like abilities thanks to their species.

Creamcloud said the first two were not martials.

This illustrates the problem, we can't even agree on what we are talking about here as it means different things to different people.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Like @CreamCloud0 said, the first two are martials. The High Elf Fighter (Champion) is also martial, one that benefits from the use of some spell-like abilities thanks to their species.

uh, i said the first two weren't martials?

edit: ninja'd

 

[Corinnguard]

That's exactly how it works in Level Up.

Plus each martial class has a list of combat traditions they are proficient in.

Heralds (A5e's name for Paladin) can become proficient in 2 of the following combat traditions: Sanguine Knot, Spirited Steed, or Tempered Iron.

Rangers in Level Up can become proficient in 2 of the following combat traditions: Biting Zephyr, Mirror’s Glint, Rapid Current, Razor’s Edge, Spirited Steed, and Unending Wheel.

Fighters in Level Up can be proficient in any three combat traditions. Two at 1st-level and one when they acquire their archetype.

There is well over a dozen combat traditions in Level Up.

 

[Corinnguard]

This illustrates the problem, we can't even agree on what we are talking about here as it means different things to different people.

Afraid so. I see the two classes as martial classes even though they have the ability to cast spells in 5e.

 

[CreamCloud0]

For me caster is a lot easier to define than martial. If you can cast any spells at all you are a caster. Whether it is one cantrip once a day or a full complement of spells up to 9th level, if you cast you are a caster.

for me what defines a caster is the amount in which their spells are incorporated into the design and use of their class, to me rangers and paladin are casters because their class is designed to take advantage of their spells and slots as part of their resources, an eldritch knight or arcane trickster are basically full martials but with an asterisk, due to their limited casting capabilities only affecting the execution of their standard procedure of play from say, a battlemaster or a thief a minimal amount. similar logic applies that playing a high elf or taking magic initiate doesn't actually effect how your character would play enough if you hadn't taken those options.
(i realize i'm repeating myself a little but i feel it's for clarity)

 

[Minigiant]

A few of the higher level martial features are equal or better than a 5th level spell (Indomitable for one off the top of my head).

A tiny few.

2024 Indomitable is a saving throw reroll with a huge bonus. Probably about worth a 5th level spell.
But not much else on the fighter is that high on its own.

Steel wind strike is 5 attacks spread out so maybe the 2-4th level capstone 4 Attack is 5th level.

Action Surge 6 attacks is like a 5th 6th or maaaaaaaaybe 7th level spell. But you only get 1 until level 17.

So think of it this way

Extra Attack: At will a 2nd-4th level spell
Second Wind: 2-4 uses 1st level spells
Action Surge: a 1st/3rd/4th/6th level 1-2 times per rest
Indomitable: 1-3 uses of a 5th level spell.

 

[Corinnguard]

I went and Googled the definition for martial as it relates to role-playing games such as D&D.

In role-playing games, "martial" generally refers to characters or classes that prioritize physical combat and weapon usage over magical abilities.

With regards to Rangers and Paladins then, it probably depends on who is playing one. For instance, my Bugbear Ranger is a martial because he favors physical combat over spells. But you could probably have a Ranger or a Paladin who relies more on magic than physical combat, thus they would fall into the role of casters within their given party. Then there would be the players who stick to the middle ground by using physical combat and magic as much as possible.

 

[Minigiant]

All I am saying is the easiest and simplest way to fix the imbalance is to give the weaker classes (martials, half-casters, weaker casters, whatever) more spells/slots at the level where the imbalance exists. This works and it is simple, easy and underpinned by a well developed, well understood and well playtested spell casting system.

Nope

The easiest way to fix martials is to give them more iconic class features.

The number 1 problem with non-full spellcasters is that they only get 1 class feature each level to make them simple to new players.
You don't have to do that past level 7.
No sane DM is handing new players a character over level 5.

They don't even need to be complex. Bonus AC, Speed increases. Additional ASI. Extra saving throw and skill proficiencies.

 

[mellored]

Giving martials spells does not kill martials, they are still martials with spells (like Rqangers and Paladins already are).

Casting spells isn't a martial thing.
Nothing wrong with hybrids of course.

Also I am not talking about thew best solution, I am talking about the easiest solution.

It won't help champion, Thief, Assassin, Beserker, ect...
Reducing high level spell slots is simple and would.

Yeah those things are not equal at 3rd level (or any level). Wild Shape and Channel Divinity are not even a thing at 1st level.

They are all level 2 things now.

But again, I boosted lowest level spell casting, and reduced it at higher levels. Making their slot gains more linear.

 

[James Gasik]

Ok, so, in conclusion-

1) Magic as it exists cannot be balanced against anything that isn't magic.

2) Not enough people want to reign in the power of magic, "because it wouldn't be magic".

3) Many people want to play characters who do not use magic (this includes doing anything that they would consider "supernatural", beyond possibly, the feats of an average action hero).

Alrighty then, nothing to see here. I think I understand the Martial/Caster deniers. There is no problem, everything is working as intended!

Be right back, I need to make an appointment. My eyes rolled so hard they hurt now.