Daggerheart General Thread [+]

Ruin Explorer said:

Agree completely. This is the right way to look at it.


But is it the first time you've heard them called "crusaders" or the like? Which essentially (I mean let's not get into it too deeply) means the same thing. Or what about zealots? I don't think it is trolling, it's just using a relevant modern term, I actually think the whole "religion as an excuse for me to beat people up thing", which a very well-worn RPG trope is, in fact... problematic. Doesn't mean we need to ban or w/e, jeez I've played PCs like that enough! Hell one of my favourite 5E PCs was a Druid who er... might have claimed some of the people he killed in battle as sacrifices to his gods... >.>

And indeed, it's not new to regard it as problematic. Earthdawn, one of the first games to really sit down and carefully and try and think about how to "fix" D&D and how to bind important D&D ideas into the gameworld, removed Clerics and Paladins, and that wasn't an accident or random I'd suggest. Nor is their absence from a lot of videogames an accident - nor the fact that when they are in videogames, they often are portrayed as dangerous fanatics.

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I mean, if you like to play clerics as zealous murderers for their gods, you do you. But I almost never see that in play, and couching it that was is absolutely baiting the hook.

overgeeked said:

Looking more at environments. I think you could raid one of the many journey-travel systems for ideas and come up with a few other generic environments and simply string 2-4 of them together to have a passable travel system in Daggerheart.

I was also thinking about dungeons using environments. Something like Trapped Hallway. Use a GM move or spend a Fear to introduce a trap. I know some people really hate the idea of traps just going off, so maybe either sign-posting traps or engaging a trap with that GM move/Fear spend. I mean engaging as in something like hearing the click as you step on something. You're not automatically dead or hurt, but you're now dealing with a trap.

Or the old staple of flooded dungeons. The Raging River environment almost works, but not quite. Maybe something as simple as tweaking it to Lose Items rather than having an Undertow. Or skeletons coming up out of the water instead of a Glass Snake. A triggered trap to start flooding the dungeon, it's on a countdown, of course. I don't remember any difficult terrain equivalent in the book besides the rolling to move a longer distance. Is the closest thing crossing the Raging River?

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One could easily convert Level Up’s exploration hazards, traps, and even regions into more environments.

Reynard said:

I mean, if you like to play clerics as zealous murderers for their gods, you do you.

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I shall!

And to be fair, most of my clerics haven't been (Eilistraee is a fav) - but just looking at the way Clerics and Paladins are characterized and played I think it's fair to say an awful lot of them are kind of just lucky that they happen to be on the "right side" lol. Again, if we look at videogames where they are present, quite a lot of them aren't, or are questionable (Paladins tending to actually come out a little better than Clerics overall imho).

I mean, I remember, all the way back in the late 1990s, reading the actual tenets of Clangeddin, the dwarf war gods, in one of the FR books, and realizing holy hell, this dude was down for genocide. Not like, maybe, arguably, kinda sorta, but like full of "KILL EM ALL" genocide (re: giants primarily - and not just "evil" giants!). And seeing this listed as "Lawful Good", whilst absolutely 100% Gary Gygax would both agree and defend that ("nits make lice" ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh), it was still totally messed up.

Ruin Explorer said:

But is it the first time you've heard them called "crusaders" or the like? Which essentially (I mean let's not get into it too deeply) means the same thing. Or what about zealots? I don't think it is trolling, it's just using a relevant modern term, I actually think the whole "religion as an excuse for me to beat people up thing", which a very well-worn RPG trope is, in fact... problematic. Doesn't mean we need to ban or w/e, jeez I've played PCs like that enough! Hell one of my favourite 5E PCs was a Druid who er... might have claimed some of the people he killed in battle as sacrifices to his gods... >.>

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“Some seraphs ally themselves with an army or locale, much to the satisfaction of their rulers, but other crusaders fight in opposition to the follies of the Mortal Realm.”

I’m not sure why DH dropped Cleric / Paladin from their classes when almost the rest are direct D&D fare - but perhaps it’s to leave the religious connotations you want to bring in more open. None of the Frames are thst explicit about divinity apart from the one with the almost animistic small gods.

I’ve just gone ahead and made new cards/ subclasses off the Seraph - one Cleric, one Paladin, which fits my classic D&Dtropland better .

Ruin Explorer said:

I shall!

And to be fair, most of my clerics haven't been (Eilistraee is a fav) - but just looking at the way Clerics and Paladins are characterized and played I think it's fair to say an awful lot of them are kind of just lucky that they happen to be on the "right side" lol. Again, if we look at videogames where they are present, quite a lot of them aren't, or are questionable (Paladins tending to actually come out a little better than Clerics overall imho).

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In a world in which Gods are real, grant very real power, and have very real desires of expansion...

The idea that Clerics and Paladins would not have the potential to be fanatical and extremely dangerous is....not one I would agree with.

Paladins are zealots, they believe so firmly in their Oath (5e) that they gain miraculous power. I mean yeah. Its thought line that is pretty deep in terms of potential problems.

Scribe said:

In a world in which Gods are real, grant very real power, and have very real desires of expansion...

The idea that Clerics and Paladins would not have the potential to be fanatical and extremely dangerous is....not one I would agree with.

Paladins are zealots, they believe so firmly in their Oath (5e) that they gain miraculous power. I mean yeah. Its thought line that is pretty deep in terms of potential problems.

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Note that the DH Seraph also implies some sort of sworn oath granting or inherent in the role via the class questions and fluff. It’s a genericized High fantasy Paladin with the aasimar wings.

I love that the “healing” domain powers don’t interact with death at all, apart from the single use Resurrection.

Faolyn said:

One could easily convert Level Up’s exploration hazards, traps, and even regions into more environments.

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I was more thinking Cubicle 7's Journeys and 4E's terrain and traps.

Reynard said:

I mean, if you like to play clerics as zealous murderers for their gods, you do you. But I almost never see that in play, and couching it that was is absolutely baiting the hook.

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I think that falls into the "don't be a jerk" playstyle. Something Daggerheart goes out of their way to argue against. I think it's bringing an attitude from outside of the game into it, and I'll have an issue with that regardless of what we're talking about.

overgeeked said:

I was more thinking Cubicle 7's Journeys and 4E's terrain and traps.

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With the improvised damage chart and effects, traps should be easy to toss together as GM moves off fear etc. Stress as an expendable resource is really nice too for using traps to ablate lightly without weighing play down, I’d be tempted to charge them that on a success with fear for instance.

Reynard said:

This is literally the first time I have ever seen or heard clerics and paladins referred to as "jihadists" and frankly it feels like trolling.

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It's not though.

A cleric is a warrior of a religion who exists to spread their faith at the end of the threat of violence.

Using that term just peels away all attempts at making it sound better, but that is what it is. And it's a concept that isn't common in fantasy literature in the modern era and has 'aged poorly'.

On @Ruin Explorer 's note that they're not in many modern video games, lets look at a difference between WoW and FFIXV - the 'big names' in MMOs (well, FFXIV is rapidly losing it's luster, but if I'd posted this 1.5 years ago many of us would still believe it might soon by the permanent #1 - but that's a whole other topic).

WoW went priest, but over time that class has seemed less and less priest or more 'healing mage' in how they've used it. Like they have often shied away from 'going there' with it's lore. Not always, but often. They genericized the heck out of 'the light'.

FFXIV went with assorted healers but the most 'priest list' was always the 'White Mage' and that's never been about a religion. It's been about the power of love, fuzzy bunnies, rainbows, and hugging trees.
- And that's closer than a lot of stuff gets.

When religion comes up in fantasy literature it comes up as a political force or a faith of a character, but rarely as 'smite the non-believers and unholy ones'.

Seraph sort of goes there, but shies away from the brink. Which I like, as I can more easily theme it towards the FFXIV 'power of love and fuzzy bunnies' angle and away from 'crusader / jihadist' even though "paladin" is even more problematic than cleric in what it sources from.

In 1974 I don't think people had the same 'exposure' to the problems of this concept as we do in 2025 where global media and more makes it hit home more. So I'm personally "done" with the idea of needing a healer role to be tied to 'smite the heretics'.

Rather than trying to troll - I wanted it clear why I'm relieved.

zakael19 said:

“Some seraphs ally themselves with an army or locale, much to the satisfaction of their rulers, but other crusaders fight in opposition to the follies of the Mortal Realm.”

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Yeah that.

The way it's worded in DH lets me 'not go there', and opens it up to be a much fuller concept. I can save 'crusader / jihadist' for adversaries that don't get magical smite powers to go along with their fanaticism.