Daggerheart Discussion

I’ve had a druid in the game I ran, and in general I did worry about combat balance between PCs early on in the game. However I found out that in practice it never mattered or came up as a problem. I see combat in DH as a vehicle for a dramatic scene and less so an exercise of playing a tactical game of defeating enemies. There are so many other story based things happening in the combat scenes that I’ve run that a single PC’s power has never been an issue. I don’t think DH combat is fun enough on its own where you could have a great session of just playing out fights like you kind of can in some other games (PF2, DnD4e, Draw Steel). Instead the combat has enough crunch and depth to give these fun mechanical bits to enhance the overall experience, which focuses on the story that we’re playing out with the group.

So it's not only the druid's combat abilities, but also the ability to do anything at any time.
Need a scout that can get anywhere? Need to basically be invisible? Need to fly? Need to swim? Need to teleport the party anywhere? Need to heal damage? Need to do the most damage of any character? Need to create a safe haven to rest?
The only limit on the druid's inherent flexibility is the self limitation of the player by being a gracious team player. A GM must create ridiculous situations to put meaningful obstacles before the party.

Anecdotal, but we have a druid in the game I'm playing in, and they haven't felt like they have the answer for everything. Might be that they are just a good player, half of the group are mostly GMs that are getting to play.

Agamon said:

Anecdotal, but we have a druid in the game I'm playing in, and they haven't felt like they have the answer for everything. Might be that they are just a good player, half of the group are mostly GMs that are getting to play.

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Part of that can, of course, be important. If you've got a player who has to actively resist their tendency to spotlight hog (and its not an uncommon disease) it might be more of an issue. It'll also likely depend on whether one or more players who are used to playing games where combat is tight (as in, errors are punishing); if so they might drop into the safe (presumably druidic) solution.

(Again, read this keeping in mind I've yet to play, but have only read the SRD; that doesn't look like it'd change the basis of the evaluation above. Generous and group-focused players can pave over a lot of class-specific overpower in a lot of games (which isn't an excuse for making that kind of design error, but might show why it doesn't end up heavily standing out in playtesting.))

Thomas Shey said:

Part of that can, of course, be important. If you've got a player who has to actively resist their tendency to spotlight hog (and its not an uncommon disease) it might be more of an issue. It'll also likely depend on whether one or more players who are used to playing games where combat is tight (as in, errors are punishing); if so they might drop into the safe (presumably druidic) solution.

(Again, read this keeping in mind I've yet to play, but have only read the SRD; that doesn't look like it'd change the basis of the evaluation above. Generous and group-focused players can pave over a lot of class-specific overpower in a lot of games (which isn't an excuse for making that kind of design error, but might show why it doesn't end up heavily standing out in playtesting.))

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It is kind of hard to spotlight hog in DH because a failed roll or a roll with fear moves the spotlight to the GM. When it moves back, the game state will have very likely changed and so chances are one character, even if overtuned, can't do everything.

Reynard said:

It is kind of hard to spotlight hog in DH because a failed roll or a roll with fear moves the spotlight to the GM. When it moves back, the game state will have very likely changed and so chances are one character, even if overtuned, can't do everything.

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The Fear point is legitimate, but the other assumes everyone will fail the same amount. Not sure from the discussion that applies evenly (in particular uptrhead it was suggested at least in combat that it's less true with the druid, the topic at immediate hand).

Thomas Shey said:

The Fear point is legitimate, but the other assumes everyone will fail the same amount. Not sure from the discussion that applies evenly (in particular uptrhead it was suggested at least in combat that it's less true with the druid, the topic at immediate hand).

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I don't think the Druid's inherent bonuses to success are higher than anyone else's, so they are going to fail as often as anyone else, no?

Thomas Shey said:

The Fear point is legitimate, but the other assumes everyone will fail the same amount. Not sure from the discussion that applies evenly (in particular uptrhead it was suggested at least in combat that it's less true with the druid, the topic at immediate hand).

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Reynard said:

I don't think the Druid's inherent bonuses to success are higher than anyone else's, so they are going to fail as often as anyone else, no?

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Yes and no.

Druids are actually a bit MAD, as different beast forms use different stats to attack, and all the physical stats and Instinct are used. So a Druid that dumped STR is going to be a point or two lower than their primary casting stat even with the Beast form stat bump. Now, several combat forms compensate for that with inherent Advantage on attacks, which should put it back in the Druid's favor, but that's a condition that can be negated with Disadvantage.

Druids are also Hope starved, as at least IME, Druid players tend to use Hope mostly to use the augmented Beast Form and maintain the Armored Beetles spell, so they have less Hope to boost their rolls as well.

All my experience with Daggerheart so far (still only in tiers 1 and 2) have suggested that Druids are certainly powerful, but I don't find them OP or broken. DH's method of spotlight management does a lot and I haven't had issues with Druids overshadowing other players. Now ... admittedly I think once multiclassing becomes available at Tier 3, this can become more of an issue as I know giving a Druid access to say ... the Bone domain, for example, can definitely give them some very powerful options

I think Multiclassing is generally a) dumb and b) should have a narrative reason that makes sense and c) at least lines out your Spec/Mastery advances (or at least the middle one?) which can be quite powerful.

I think a good homebrew rec I saw folks putting forward was making druids have some sort of opportunity cost on forms. You don’t get all of them - pick two, ideally then ones which fill a gap instead of doubling down.

(Also perma advantage on attack rolls is stupid, especially in a game that otherwise wants you to work together for it or makes it way more costly eg: the Blade ability that’s Stress for one Atk. That should either have a cost or be switched to an adjective that’s not combat related)

Vael said:

Druids are actually a bit MAD, as different beast forms use different stats to attack, and all the physical stats and Instinct are used. So a Druid that dumped STR is going to be a point or two lower than their primary casting stat even with the Beast form stat bump.

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Nope. Those increases will give you even better stats than anyone else in the party.