Daggerheart Discussion

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, you really don't want to ignore 13th Age mooks; they do about half damage as a similar level of non-mook opponent, but you get five times as many. The only good thing is that they can be mowed down pretty easily, and they rarely have condition riders (I think 2e suggests not doing it at all). The limiting factor is deploying them, since 13th age still pays a little attention to how many you can fit around someone depending on layout (which is why ranged mooks often get their damaged turned down even a little lower).

 

[Tigris]

Lets beat this horse some more!

I've been working on Forgotten Realms adversaries for my Neverwinter game, just about done with the Red Wizards. 23 profiles between tiers 2&3! I've also been putting together "Encounter" environments that provide some little features that follow from 4e style terrain/traps or Draw Steel! Malice abilities, things that represent what might happen to the environment when you fight this specific faction. Please ignore the Red Wizard Adept profile, I forgot to finish it...

One thing I've noticed about the Minions in DH is that they kinda well, suck. I think they forgot to notice that in 4e and other systems (DS!, maybe 13th age?) that use that sort of design in addition to feeling cool to mow down, there's also an opportunity cost to ignoring minions in a way that the Group Attack just doesnt capture well I think. I can improvise stuff like "the minions surround you, you're Restrained until they're cleared away" or whatever, but there's some really cool stuff on some 4e minion profiles that I've started porting over that doesn't focus on damage but more keeping the combat dynamic and interesting.

View attachment 434954

They look nice! Just one question: is it normal leader like enemies have a higher difficulty?


I did not look too much into the monster building and did use a 15 difficulty monster before.


I Also remarked that advantage in daggerheart is bettet than the average of the dice. And with this 16 difficulty leader I want to do the math, just for fun.


So a normal level 2 character which has not yet boosted main stat (because other things where for them more important) has +2 to main stat and the chance to reach 16 are:

((1+11)*11/2)/144 = 66/144 = 45.8333%



A druid using 3 hope to transform into the instinct beast has +4 on main stat so the chance to hit is (66+12+11)/144 = 61.805555% or 23/144 = 15.97222% more


Now on top of that you have advantage when attacking in this form. That gives in average (((10+ (10+9) + (10+9+8) + (10+9+8+7) + (10+9+8+7+6) 1 (10+9+8+7+6+5))/6)/144 =29.16666/144 = 20.25%


So in total the druid has (29.1666666+23)/144 = 36.226815% higher chance to hit.


So in total a 82.06% chance to hit. Or a 17.93981% Chance to miss. (So less than 1 in 5)

Meanwhile the normal character has a 54.166666% chance to miss (so over half the time).


So the normal character has a 3.075 higher chance to miss. So MORE than a 3 times as high chance to miss.

 

[Tigris]

Nothing wrong with theorycrafting, I'm just saying it doesn't feel bad in play.

Well in your group maybe not, maybe the druid plays/builds "badly" (maybe to not stand out too much even by choice) but retreater did mention that in their group the druid definitly does stand out as being OP.


Also for me it would 100% feel bad if I would be a fighter and miss a boss more than half the time while the druid only misses less than every 5th time.


This is really extreme. It may not be remarkable in just 1 fight because of the variance but after some bosses it will for sure be remarkable.

 

[zakael19]

Can we stop beating the Druid horse maybe?

Yes, Leaders tend to have a higher Difficulty for the tier and strong HP and Stress and always have an ability that allows spotlighting of some sort. Their damage expression is lower than Bruisers and Solos (Elites). In 4e parlance, they're your ...well... Leaders.

Note that DH generally expects you to have a Leader, Bruiser or Solo (or Horde for some reason) in each encounter meant to actually be significant - since the BP math explicitly gives you extra points if you don't include one of those roles. I tend to use Solos(elites) liberally because they have impactful abilities without having to do a bunch of token shuffling.

 

[Agamon]

Lets beat this horse some more!

I've been working on Forgotten Realms adversaries for my Neverwinter game, just about done with the Red Wizards. 23 profiles between tiers 2&3! I've also been putting together "Encounter" environments that provide some little features that follow from 4e style terrain/traps or Draw Steel! Malice abilities, things that represent what might happen to the environment when you fight this specific faction. Please ignore the Red Wizard Adept profile, I forgot to finish it...

One thing I've noticed about the Minions in DH is that they kinda well, suck. I think they forgot to notice that in 4e and other systems (DS!, maybe 13th age?) that use that sort of design in addition to feeling cool to mow down, there's also an opportunity cost to ignoring minions in a way that the Group Attack just doesnt capture well I think. I can improvise stuff like "the minions surround you, you're Restrained until they're cleared away" or whatever, but there's some really cool stuff on some 4e minion profiles that I've started porting over that doesn't focus on damage but more keeping the combat dynamic and interesting.

View attachment 434954

My last game, I did 40 damage to a L2 bard with a crit with minions using the Group attack, causing the campaign's first death move. So, I don't see the problem lol

 

[Retreater]

Yeah, you really don't want to ignore 13th Age mooks;

Yeah. Unfortunately minions and hordes in DH are basically worthless as opponents. Do pathetic damage. Not challenging in the slightest.

 

[zakael19]

My last game, I did 40 damage to a L2 bard with a crit with minions using the Group attack, causing the campaign's first death move. So, I don't see the problem lol

They just dont offer anything else interesting except "spend a fear and hope the d20 favors you/punish Vulnerable players." Which just means there's design space to play with!

Here's a couple examples I pulled from 4e profiles:

"Bloodlust - Passive: Each Devil with Very Close gains +2 to damage rolls for each Animate in range.
Essence Transfer - Reaction: A non-minion devil within Very Close clears a HP when the Animate is defeated."

Now you've got some choices around trying to kill these guys away from any Devils that might be on the field...

or instead of all piling into a single target, and with a fun little rider to spend the single stress a Minion has (yes, auto Vuln after this):

"Dazing Dagger - Action: Mark a Stress on a successful attack to Daze a target. Dazed targets must mark a Stress before making an Action Roll, and then clear the condition.
Fell Assault - Action: Spend a Fear to spotlight all Creeps in the scene, they may move and make a single attack roll that applies to all of them, but do not need to attack the same target."

 

[zakael19]

Yeah. Unfortunately minions and hordes in DH are basically worthless as opponents. Do pathetic damage. Not challenging in the slightest.

A T3 Bruiser does 3d10+2ish damage. T3 Minion Groups seem designed to do a flat 25ish damage. A T2 minion group will do ~16 damage, compared to a T2 skulk's 2d8+2 or so.

Downsides are a) needs a fear so not something you do on a regular spotlight and b) generally dogcrap Atk.

Which is again, why I'm exploring the design space.