“Who started it?” Initiative order

[UngeheuerLich]

It has taken a while for me to wrap my head around this. Especially whe alert feat also is in the mix.

My solution is just adjucating the situation as is. If the combat breaks out surprisingly. Everyone is surprised except for the initiator . Initiative dictates if you can brace yourself for an attack on time.
Sometimes there has to be a stealth or deception roll to deermine if you can surprise the enemy at all. Sometimes the attacker gets advantage on initiative. Sometimes I would just set his initiatove on 20. In very rare cases on 0 (you just barely surprise everyone who can them act before you take another action.)
In very rare cases I would just allow you to take a readied action before combat starts assuming you have readied an action to do a certain thing that noone can reasonably interrupt.
That seems especially uswful in a situation where everyone knows that combat will eventually happen bit noone knows excactly when. You can't be surprised if you enter an enemy guatdpost with drawn weapons. defenders might still get a jump on you. I assume your actions are used to dodge or also readied for a certain trigger.

Edit:it might also occur that enemies threaten you directly with a dagger on your throat or a crossbow pointed at your heart whem you still habe to draw a weapon. In that case you can just fire first before something happens except when you lose an opposed stealth vs perception or deception vs insight check. Then the readied action would be skipped.

 

[delericho]

I'm in the "roll initiative" camp. Since actions aren't instantaneous, there's always the chance that the other guy might just be quicker.

In rare situations, I might award the guy who acted first surprise, but only if the other guy genuinely wouldn't be expecting the threat. That's basically never the case in the dungeon (where everyone will be at least a little on edge), but might be the case if the party is relaxing at their local watering hole and things go south fast.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I think thats a good use of advantage. Quite elegant and fits the basic definitions dead on.

Only nuance i might make is require some degree of deception check with DC based on how difficult it is to hide your intention.

This shifts the "who is likely to succeed at pulling it off and getting the upper hand" to the more sneaky guy, not just the guy quickest to decide to shoot things up.

Brutus "always jumps early" Barbarian is just not as likely to be the guy most likely to get advantage cuz folks dont see his attack coming as "Leo "the smiling, one bringing the drinks" Rougeau.

So, in some cases, perhaps a Deception Check vs DC (varies) to get advantage on the Init order.

Yeah, I like that. Quite a bit.

I'm picturing a Vengeance Paladin with Deception pretending he is Oath of Redemption. "Oh, folks, we can resolve this peacefu....BOOYAH!"

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Actually the problem is handling rounds in general. You declare that you want to attack and then you get a full round of actions as everyone else. 3.0 as a variant and 3.5 only allowed partial actions because of that.
In 5e you could model it as everyone gets only a readied action (which you could also use to dodge but not cast a spell except one that can be used as a reaction.) in initiative order. That would make sense if everyone already braced themself for combat anyway. You could also ask everyone ahead: what would you do if a combat breaks out. If weapons are drawn already noone should be surprised.

A different idea is using the mike mearls variant of initiative or the initiative variant in the dmg. You declare your action and then you roll with a modifier.
For the first round of combat it might be a good solition. Then you could go to cyclic rounds.

Modifiers could be:
+5 shoot with a readied ranged weapon without moving
-5 load a ranged weapon and shoot
- 10 if you move and take an action
- 5 draw your weapon
Etc.
Maybe in that rare case you can allow everyone who didn't use all movement use the remainder after everyone acted at normal initiative -20 (-10 if you already moved before your action).

To make it a bit easier you could combine only "reactions" and "everyone declares what to do" so it gets a lot less complicated if combat breaks out in close quarter.
Notice that drawing your weapon takes an action. Loading a bow does not.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Sometimes a PC initiates combat and then the DM asks for initiative. That player then argues they should go first.

Surprise rounds etc. have been (IMO) inelegantly used in these situations over various editions.

I’m toying with a minor house rule — if somebody unexpectedly starts the fight, they don’t roll initiative. Everybody else does, then the person who started it goes first, with their initiative one point ahead of the first person to react.

Might try that next game session! .

I think I would resolve the Players stated action and then roll initiative.

 

[posineg]

We have the organic Initiative and then the triggered Initiative. The organic is basically the standard, things have happened that it is easier to track actions in combat and fallows the standard. The triggered Initiative is when a PC does a action that causes the rest of the world to react and rolls are needed but the initiative count starts with the initial PC and counts down from there.

 

[ad_hoc]

I think I would resolve the Players stated action and then roll initiative.

We have the organic Initiative and then the triggered Initiative. The organic is basically the standard, things have happened that it is easier to track actions in combat and fallows the standard. The triggered Initiative is when a PC does a action that causes the rest of the world to react and rolls are needed but the initiative count starts with the initial PC and counts down from there.

Are the players okay with it when monsters automatically win initiative?

 

[Raunalyn]

I rule it:

The PC initiating the incident goes first, then everyone rolls initiative for the surprise round. The initiator does not get another action until the surprise round is finished.

 

[BigBadDM]

Surprise is hard, you pretty much need to be in stealth or invisible.

A lot of DnD is narration. Basically, I see the issue at other tables as: 'I don't like the way NPC X is talking, I attack him with my sword'. DM--roll initiative. Players, 'shouldn't NPC X be surprised? He wouldn't know I was going to attack'. Ensuing debate on initiative and rounds.

Initiation of combat should be more akin to the following: Player-'I don't like the way NPC X is talking, I attack him with my sword." DM-- 'As you reach for your sword, NPC X and comrades reach to their sides and grasps their daggers', players roll imitative. Problem solved.

If characters complain about why would they suspect or they are being sneaky drawing weapons. Make them roll Sleight of Hand vs Perception.
If players say their weapons were already drawn--well then your NPCs weapons were drawn.
If players were behind the NPCs, then stealth vs perception. If failed kicked a stone or something. Otherwise surprise.

To keep in mind, if one player goes rogue, even other PCs should roll perception vs their own teammate. If someone is not communicating, then they even your own side may be surprised.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Are the players okay with it when monsters automatically win initiative?

I don't have monsters automatically win initiative.

I describe a scene, the players tell me what their characters do and we resolve those actions. Sometimes with dice.