D&D 5E 0 HP =/= Down, Dying, and Death

[bulletmeat]

Saga didn't work that way, I don't think. It was the first d20 Star Wars.

But while the system was fine in a vacuum, it really didn't feel like Star Wars, where a lucky hit could take out the hero. And it still didn't have any way to get a limb cut off.

That's the revised d20 Star Wars. Saga was '3rd edition' d20 Star Wars.

 

[prabe]

something akin to being taken out & more importantly conceeding in fate could work with d&d, but it lacks the same kind of thing as scenes & aspects so could be abused even worse than it could be in fate.

It would definitely require other houserules around it, or maybe serve as a complement to those houserules if they already existed. I was merely noting the similarity, in a relative absence of judgment.

 

[Laurefindel]

First, I really don't want to turn this into another "What are HP?" thread, so if we can all just refrain from the meat/non-meat debate I would appreciate it. Thank you.

Now, I've been exploring some things for my upcoming campaign, mostly focused around making dying (and staying dead) a more frightening concept. IME, it is too easy to recover from death, so the fear of death is not really a deterrent.

That, and some comments (forgive me for not citing who said what) got me thinking about what does it really mean for creature to reach 0 hp. For most monsters, it is death. Some (more important?) ones might be unconscious and making death saves, etc.

However, one comment that struck me as significant was maybe reaching 0 hp is more about something else? Maybe it is about losing the will to fight and the creature surrenders? Whether you give up, go down, or die... you're out of the fight no matter which you choose--so how much does it matter really for that combat?

Taking it a step further, what if it was the player's choice in some cases and in others determined by a mechanic? Perhaps if you hit 0 hp as the result of a critical hit, you are dying, maybe unconscious. But, if you hit 0 hp otherwise you're defeated--you give up and know you're done. The player could choose and might say the character falls unconscious or maybe they say the PC drops his weapon and surrenders, or something else along the lines that would effectively remove him from the fight.

I know most people will see reaching 0 hp sightly (or hugely) in a different light, so I'm not expecting any great answers to all this, it has just been something on my mind the last couple days and I wanted to share. Thanks for reading.

In my Eberron game, going to 0hp means being DEFEATED. For mooks, defeated might mean dead. For the main villain or PC, it might mean being brought down to their knees. In a "friendly" brawl, it might be like saying "ok fine, you win!" In a bar fight, it might mean being knocked silly, or unconscious. A defeated soldier might surrender, an animal would just go away. In a duel to the death, it would mean dying... Defeated was left circumstantial on purpose, with the stakes of the combat clearly stated beforehand.

Now this house rule was made to fully embrace the non-lethality of 5e, so what happens next depends on a modified death saving throw (modified by the stakes), determining whether they stay conscious and/or accumulate exhaustion levels, but it could easily be retooled to make it a grittier or more lethal game.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Saga didn't work that way, I don't think. It was the first d20 Star Wars.

But while the system was fine in a vacuum, it really didn't feel like Star Wars, where a lucky hit could take out the hero. And it still didn't have any way to get a limb cut off.

Yeah, my mistake on the edition.

We played it for a couple years and overall I think it is the best system. Complex, but not crazy, and with CON 12-16+ and you can go to -10 wounds, you would need a big critical hit to kill a character in one shot.

 

[bulletmeat]

A level 1 warrior crit & killed a Sith that was hunting them in our Clone Wars campaign. Caused me to redo alot of the story on the fly but by the Force it was epic. I think the problem is when a PC can go out the same way it's not as 'epic'.

 

[DND_Reborn]

A level 1 warrior crit & killed a Sith that was hunting them in our Clone Wars campaign. Caused me to redo alot of the story on the fly but by the Force it was epic. I think the problem is when a PC can go out the same way it's not as 'epic'.

I guess it depends on the story at that point. If a trap in 5E rolls a crit for its attack and kills the rogue trying to disable it, it probably isn't epic either. Except, of course, in watching the other players go "OH!, DANG!" and laugh at or lament the PC's fate.

Epic on happens when there is success IMO. That success might come at a cost--including a PCs life.

 

[Laurefindel]

A level 1 warrior crit & killed a Sith that was hunting them in our Clone Wars campaign. Caused me to redo alot of the story on the fly but by the Force it was epic. I think the problem is when a PC can go out the same way it's not as 'epic'.

Hehe, I love when low level PCs suddenly gain more fame than they deserve, or more attention than what then can handle.

About PCs going down in similar ways, a RPG doesn't have to be symmetrical: the fact that the PC is a goose does not necessarily make the NPC a gander. Reserve that privilege for the major villains and "boss monsters".

 

[Nebulous]

I don't allow any bonuses to death save throws, barring a few exceptionally rare ones. It's already hard enough to kill someone in 5e. A co-DM in my group does the same for his home game.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I don't allow any bonuses to death save throws, barring a few exceptionally rare ones. It's already hard enough to kill someone in 5e. A co-DM in my group does the same for his home game.

FWIW we make death saves modified by CON mod, since its logical that a creature with better health would more likely stabilize that a creature with poor health. But, to offset this we did raise the DC from 10 to 15 because it is hard to kill someone in 5E.