D&D 5E (2014) 0 HP =/= Down, Dying, and Death

[Lanefan]

Strange timing - in another thread in response to @dave2008 's ideas for a more gritty 5e I just finished posting some thoughts for just this; so I might as well copy them here as well.

dave2008's idea, if I read it right, seems to be to add some hit points - he called them Bloodied Hit Points, or BHP - to each character, and then have them die (or make death saves?) on reaching 0. One's BHP would be STR mod + [CON mod x size] but I don't know how he's numericising 'size' and have asked.

Here's what I posted there:

And, do you have any mechanism for going unconscious without dying?

One that leaps to mind would be any time you take damage that leaves you in positive BHP you need to make a Con save at DC [5 + the amount of BHP you have lost from your total] or collapse unconscious.

Example: character has however many normal hit points (I'll call these Fatigue Points, or FP) plus 14 BP. Character takes damage that leave it with 12 BP, meaning it's lost 2 thus its consciousness save is DC [5 + 2] 7. Character then gets hit again for 9 more points damage leaving it at 3 BP; it now has to make a save at DC [5 + 9 + 2] 16 to stay upright.

Unconscious characters cannot benefit from second-wind-like effects, nor can they heal themselves in any way, but can be healed as normal by someone else (but see below!), or awoken without healing if someone spends an action to do so and is within touch reach.

If not awoken by combat's end the downed PC makes a save of the same DC that knocked it out, success meaning it awakens on its own and failure meaning the character will bleed out and die in [some time period based on how damaged it is] if not tended. (most of the time someone will tend the fallen PC right after combat anyway, making this largely moot; this mechanism exists for cases where there's no-one left to help e.g. everyone is dead, unconscious, or fleeing for their lives) EDIT TO ADD: For added interest, if on such a roll the result is 1 under, 1 over, or bang on the DC number then nothing happens, the character remains unconscious but stable, and the process repeats in 1d30 minutes.

To make BP damage even more significant you could also have magical healing of any kind be only half as effective when curing BP.

He also has BHP healing at but 1 point per week, while FP would recover as normal.

 

[Lanefan]

Mixed thoughts here, though on the whole you're on to something...

I have been tackling with something along those line, but it would not occur at death but would start with wound threshold.
It could go like this:

At 50% of total HP, a player or a monster must make a Fear Saving throw (based on wisdom) with a DC equal to 8 + half the damage taken or that player/monster becomes frightened. Naturally a save at the end of every round will remove the condition. The frightened character/monster will have to try to get away from combat.

The same check will be done when the player/monster will reach 10% of HP. But this time the save should be made with disadvantage.

One might also force the check to be repeated each time the character takes damage [or damage of amount over a certain threshold] at flat when between 49% and 11% h.p. and at disad when at 10% or less.

You'd also need to come up with some (as in, quite a lot of) rules/rulings on just what a frightened character can do and how far away from the combat it needs to be to do it.

A player that gets down and is healed back (the whack a mole syndrome) must now make a frightened check DC 20 - current hit points and the check would be made at a disadvantage.

Even without any of the rest, this alone is brilliant!

Or, this could be made into a consciousness check: sure you're stabilized but the healing isn't enough to get you upright.

The advantages of this would be:
1) The healing done to a player would now be done way before the said player would go down.

In theory. In practice? Hmmm.....

2) Going low on HP now has a distinct disadvantage. The efficiency of the character is reduced but he can recover. So it is not detrimental to the character but it is a significant game effect (fighting at disadvantage)

How are they fighting at disadvantage when the Fear effect forces them to leave combat entirely? There's a contradiction here somewhere...

3) In the case of a downed player. The healers would now have to heal the downed player to a higher number of HP or the risk of seeing the character fleeing from combat would be very real. This might put some strain on healers but it would force players to find new strategies.

Likely result would be that downed characters, if not in immediate danger of being slaughtered, would be most often just left down until the combat's over.

4) Monsters would be in the same bag as the players. Some monsters are immune to the frightened condition. Just as some classes are better at wisdom saves. But with monsters, this brings a new meaning to fearless.

Like it.

5) This would prevent house rules in which going down could bring permanent detrimental conditions to the character. No one wants to have a character missing a limb. I know some spells will restore the lost limbs but in the mean time; it is quite a blow to the enjoyment of said character and detrimental to the fun the player might have in playing it.

How would this prevent any such houserules?

And fer gawd's sake @Helldritch , they're characters, not players!

 

[Helldritch]

Mixed thoughts here, though on the whole you're on to something...
One might also force the check to be repeated each time the character takes damage [or damage of amount over a certain threshold] at flat when between 49% and 11% h.p. and at disad when at 10% or less.

I'd like to not go over board with too many die rolls.

You'd also need to come up with some (as in, quite a lot of) rules/rulings on just what a frightened character can do and how far away from the combat it needs to be to do it.

Well, the frightened condition is written in the PHB. I would add that the character must move away from the source of his fear.

A player that gets down and is healed back (the whack a mole syndrome) must now make a frightened check DC 20 - current hit points and the check would be made at a disadvantage.

Even without any of the rest, this alone is brilliant!

Or, this could be made into a consciousness check: sure you're stabilized but the healing isn't enough to get you upright.

Thank you. But your suggestion could be enough to kill the whack a mole.

How are they fighting at disadvantage when the Fear effect forces them to leave combat entirely? There's a contradiction here somewhere...

Trying to leave combat and leaving combat are two different things entirely. You might try, but you might fail.
i.e.: You are surrounded, the enemy is faster, teleported to you (misty step), brought you back to him (telekinesis), cornered you in... well a corner?

Likely result would be that downed characters, if not in immediate danger of being slaughtered, would be most often just left down until the combat's over.

This is a possibility, but then again, this would end the wack a mole. Also, if the enemy is particularly reckless, healing a character might be the only way to save him from death as the enemy might try to either eat him, or finish him.

How would this prevent any such houserules?

It might not. Or it might. At the very least the need for them would be lessened.

And fer gawd's sake @Helldritch , they're characters, not players!

I know, but it's 03h30. I'm operating a boiler and it's very late. Concentration is on many things at the same time. Can I ask for some indulgence?

 

[rgoodbb]

I like the idea of any check being Charisma based rather than Wisdom. Sheer force of personality. Are you too stubborn to stay down, or have you just lost your confidence this one time.

 

[Don Durito]

If you use a critical hit table of some sort you could say PCs don't necessarily die until they reached a certain threshold (eg -hp or -1/2 hp) and that they can even keep fighting - but that every hit now results in a roll on a critical hit table. (Maybe only use it for this purpose so it can be particularly nasty)

So players will really worry if continuing to fight is likely to lead to lost limbs, permanent scarring or instant death. There'll be a lot more running away.

 

[dave2008]

Strange timing - in another thread in response to @dave2008 's ideas for a more gritty 5e I just finished posting some thoughts for just this; so I might as well copy them here as well.

dave2008's idea, if I read it right, seems to be to add some hit points - he called them Bloodied Hit Points, or BHP - to each character, and then have them die (or make death saves?) on reaching 0. One's BHP would be STR mod + [CON mod x size] but I don't know how he's numericising 'size' and have asked.

Here's what I posted there:

And, do you have any mechanism for going unconscious without dying?

One that leaps to mind would be any time you take damage that leaves you in positive BHP you need to make a Con save at DC [5 + the amount of BHP you have lost from your total] or collapse unconscious.

Example: character has however many normal hit points (I'll call these Fatigue Points, or FP) plus 14 BP. Character takes damage that leave it with 12 BP, meaning it's lost 2 thus its consciousness save is DC [5 + 2] 7. Character then gets hit again for 9 more points damage leaving it at 3 BP; it now has to make a save at DC [5 + 9 + 2] 16 to stay upright.

Unconscious characters cannot benefit from second-wind-like effects, nor can they heal themselves in any way, but can be healed as normal by someone else (but see below!), or awoken without healing if someone spends an action to do so and is within touch reach.

If not awoken by combat's end the downed PC makes a save of the same DC that knocked it out, success meaning it awakens on its own and failure meaning the character will bleed out and die in [some time period based on how damaged it is] if not tended. (most of the time someone will tend the fallen PC right after combat anyway, making this largely moot; this mechanism exists for cases where there's no-one left to help e.g. everyone is dead, unconscious, or fleeing for their lives) EDIT TO ADD: For added interest, if on such a roll the result is 1 under, 1 over, or bang on the DC number then nothing happens, the character remains unconscious but stable, and the process repeats in 1d30 minutes.

To make BP damage even more significant you could also have magical healing of any kind be only half as effective when curing BP.

He also has BHP healing at but 1 point per week, while FP would recover as normal.

FYI, I responded to your post in the other thread.

 

[Krachek]

Reaching 0 is like receiving a shot of laser blaster in a sci-fi movie.
it should make a huge whole in your chest, but you also might be up and running 5 minutes later with a light bandage.

 

[DND_Reborn]

See, I want to go for a system that merges 'fighting spirit' and 'physical wounds.' My belief is that if you make it harder to randomly die, you will not need to make resurrection into a core part of the game. It will make death more meaningful. Also, I want to be able to chop limbs off.

{snip}

For such a system (spirit/wounds) I would suggest looking into SW d20 game with Vitality/Wounds. IMO it is hands down the best system ever for tracking damage in combat. Basically:

Vitality is HP in D&D. HD plus CON bonus per level, etc.
Wounds = CON score. Represents actual physical damage.

When Vitality = 0, you are fatigued (IIRC -2 to attack rolls, checks, etc.). Make a FORT save, DC 5 + Wounds taken, or fall unconscious. (Change to CON from FORT). Additional damage goes to Wounds.

When Wounds = 0, you are unconscious and dying. You lose 1 Wound per round unless you make a DC 10 FORT save to stabilize. At -10 Wounds, you die.

Critical hits go directly to Wounds, but are not doubled or anything, just straight damage to Wounds.

You recover Vitality quickly (1 point per level per rest or something), but Wounds are 1 per day.

EDIT: I thought this was in the SWSE game, but thanks to all those who pointed out the error.

 

[jayoungr]

For such a system (spirit/wounds) I would suggest looking into SWSE Vitality/Wounds.

That doesn't sound like SWSE; maybe it's from the original Star Wars D20 system?

SWSE has the Condition Track and a damage threshold. If you take more than your threshold's worth of damage in a single hit, it drives you down the Condition Track, which is a death spiral in which you become constantly less able to fight. You can spend two swift actions (= reaction + bonus action in 5E? = move action?) to move yourself one step up the Condition Track.

SWSE also has virtually no in-combat healing, and no resurrection of any kind. (The thing that keeps it from being insanely deadly is Force Points. A player can spend a Force Point to declare that the character is not dead at 0 hp, but only unconscious.)

 

[RangerWickett]

For such a system (spirit/wounds) I would suggest looking into SWSE Vitality/Wounds. IMO it is hands down the best system ever for tracking damage in combat. Basically:

Vitality is HP in D&D. HD plus CON bonus per level, etc.
Wounds = CON score. Represents actual physical damage.

When Vitality = 0, you are fatigued (IIRC -2 to attack rolls, checks, etc.). Make a FORT save, DC 5 + Wounds taken, or fall unconscious. (Change to CON from FORT). Additional damage goes to Wounds.

When Wounds = 0, you are unconscious and dying. You lose 1 Wound per round unless you make a DC 10 FORT save to stabilize. At -10 Wounds, you die.

Critical hits go directly to Wounds, but are not doubled or anything, just straight damage to Wounds.

You recover Vitality quickly (1 point per level per rest or something), but Wounds are 1 per day.

Saga didn't work that way, I don't think. It was the first d20 Star Wars.

But while the system was fine in a vacuum, it really didn't feel like Star Wars, where a lucky hit could take out the hero. And it still didn't have any way to get a limb cut off.