D&D 4E 1/2 Orcs in 4E (Rich Baker scoop)

[Professor Phobos]

Games with female players will tell you why.

The one game I ever ran where rape came up had a female player in it. To my knowledge she was fine with it, insofar as her saying, "Yes, I'm fine with this" can be deemed accurate.

You have to follow some guidelines, though:

1. It must handled with extreme respect. In my scenario it was never stated outright, merely implied.

2. Do not even think about it for a second if any gamer at your table has ever experienced it personally.

3. Don't have it come up too often. And by "often", I mean "More than maybe, at most, once. Off screen. Implied."

4. Don't have it happen to a PC. Or even a recurring NPC, honestly.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

So, the other issue... the one that bothers me: part of the rules are going to be hidden from book-only customers on DDI.

Thoughts?

This trend concerns me. Their intentions may be to eventually release that material in print, but you know what they say about the road to hell .... I do not consider an online format to be equal to print, no matter how much WOTC may wish it to be so.

As to half-orcs ... given Rich's explanation this feels like a spineless throwback to 2E. They neuter half-orcs and give us Dragonborn and tieflings instead? Bah, humbug. Put in the half-orcs & let players and DMs explain why they are there.

Edit: I hope someone uses the 4E OGL to publish an alt.PHB that includes the races, classes, equipment, etc -- all the fluff -- from the 3.X PHB using the 4E rules. Right now I'd be more interested in that than the fluff I'm seeing for 4E.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Uh... Yes, when you pay for the DDI, you kind of expect actual content to come? I'm not seeing an issue here.

The issue is that there is a measureable number of gamers out there who- whether by preference, inability or some combo of both- cannot or will not EVER be able to access the DDI directly and publishing certain aspects of the game as DDI only cuts them off from a certain portion of the game.

 

[jester47]

I can see a really crazy savage tribe of humans, the kind that use the skin of other human tribes for clothing being accepted and accepting of Orcs.

I think of that tribe of people from the Jackson King Kong...
I think they would digs them some orc tribe.

 

[Pale Jackal]

I don't think it is; I can see the logic. I was just saying that for those of us who do enjoy grim, human settings, it's almost a necessary background element of the race, barring exceptional circumstances.

Right, I agree rape is almost a necessary background element for half-orcs... though some posters here are also arguing that the assumption of rape is unreasonable.

Honestly, I think if the half-orc was "interesting" enough, WotC would've kept them. But if they're not particularly popular, and add a possibly unpalatable element, why keep them?

If you're running a gritty game, you can manage without the half-orc, I suspect. =) The smiley's there because I think you're intelligent enough to house-rule something if you want a fantasy by-product of rape (something you can tell, literally at-a-glance, was a result of something terrible), but you also know that your game can be perfectly dark in a similar manner with only humans unless you want the 'at-a-glance' aspect.

Of course I am offended and disgusted by it, but that doesn't stop me from reading fiction in which it occurs. (Fantasy examples: A Song of Ice and Fire, Malazan Books of the Fallen) Nor would it stop me from having it in RPGs; I'm an adult, I game with adults, and I like to think I can handle it tastefully.

I'm a big fan of ASoIaF. But do you really need half-orcs?

 

[mhacdebhandia]

EDIT: Oh, by the way, in the original version of the story, Merlin's father was not an incubus but a "daemon", which at the time meant a higher rational creature made of air.

Nonsense. That's ridiculous unless you believe that the people who wrote Merlin's story were familiar with and bought into Greek metaphysics rather than Christian demonology. Unlikely, to say the least.

Aren't all the Eberron half races true breeding as presented have mixed origin and charestics?

Eberron's half-elves are essentially a true-breeding race now - they call themselves the Khoravar - but half-orcs still mostly come from mixed human-orc communities in the Shadow Marches.

 

[Professor Phobos]

I'm a big fan of ASoIaF. But do you really need half-orcs?

I don't personally, no. But I do find the idea pretty interesting- there's a lot to be had with characters who come from tragedy and don't really have a place in their society.

 

[Rechan]

I agree with the change, simply because I felt the "Half-orcs = rape" angle was just too limiting.

The word we are afraid to use is "rape", and rightfully so... It's a horrible, horrible thing. The issue I have is that it is being billed as the only source for the half orc. We found a way to make the Tiefling work, but the Orcs are just too darn uggly for there to be any more creative source for half orcs. The vast majority of half elves are the fruit of loving relationships or mutually desired encounters? I find that hard to believe.

Yes, 'we found a way for it to work with the tiefling'. It sounds like Baker is trying to come up with a way to 'work it with the half-orc'. From Baker

I think it's possible to posit a better backstory, like "long ago a god of evil mixed the races of orcs and humans, and to this day atavistic throwbacks are born to each from time to time." We'll see where we get to on that score when we get serious about updating the half-orc.

Not to mention the hypocrisy of "half-orcs ugly backstory" vs. "tieflings ugly backstory". Yeah, 'cause all of the ancestors of those "descended from fiendish ancestry" were loving couples.

The story that we're getting from Tieflings is that Tieflings are descendants of human empire that intentionally mixed itself with devils (both via Warlock class and via the tride and true bump and grind) for power. Thus resulting in taint.

So yes, some tieflings or half-orcs could've resulted from rape. So could half-elves. Or any human. Or well, any one.

And while yes, "True Love between Human and Orc" is a possible backstory, I know this much: when the "Mystery Race in the Core" was talked about, people were ballistic about the Orc being possible, because to them, Orcs were irredeemable evil monsters that ravaged and killed and it would ruin their D&D if Orcs were PCs and not monsters. So, while you can change your fluff for your homebrew to make Orcs loving and warm and possible, it is possibly not the majority's story for Orcs.

But I agree with a poster above: Either you have irredeemable savages, or you let PCs play orcs in the first place. If you take out the irredeemable savage part, then you lose "irredeemable savage race that everybody can go and slay".

I personally have no problem with "Humans can breed with anything, other races can't". That makes humans unique, and drives home the "Humans = corruptable".

On the topic of "Non-rape produced half-orcs", I have heard two ideas on EnWorld that I thought was great.

1) His father was a human ranger, a mountain man that lived on the frontier, and his mother was a half-orc who "married" his dad. To the father, the half-orc did as she was told, was quiet, and was strong enough to help him with manual labor. To the half-orc, the human didn't beat her and wasn't cruel like male orcs.

2) Orcs, as a race, are chaotic and unreliable. You don't want to settle down with one, but because they're viril, have impressive stamina and a bit primal, this attracts others who want a bit of an exciting one-night stand. Both male and female orcs have "Big physical attributes", and are quite wild in bed. The problem is that they're hyper-fertile (allowing them to breed back to full strength within a decade), which results in many half-orc children.

I've been tempted to use #2 for my Orcs, but I've been itching for just "Yeah, they're irredeemable. Go kill'm."

 

[Darkwolf71]

But do you really need half-orcs?

I very much like half-orcs. Barbarians, Paladins, Druids. Awesome totally under-appreciated race.

 

[Pale Jackal]

I don't personally, no. But I do find the idea pretty interesting- there's a lot to be had with characters who come from tragedy and don't really have a place in their society.

Though, that can be done with half-elves, right? Or, maybe my bias is showing, but I suspect people playing a 'grim' game are probably more intelligent than the baseline D&D user, so the same theme can be used without half-species of any kind.

I respect your point, but I think that WotC is probably making the smart choice on multiple levels.

I very much like half-orcs. Barbarians, Paladins, Druids. Awesome totally under-appreciated race.

Unfortunately, if they're underappreciated (and are going to remain so), WotC made the right choice.