D&D 4E 1/2 Orcs in 4E (Rich Baker scoop)

[UngainlyTitan]

Eberron 1/2 orcs (IMHO) had better flavor than regular 1/2 orcs. I can see where the designers are coming from..but seeing how they're paid to be creative-that's what I expect them to do. I'd like to see what they come up with.

Aren't all the Eberron half races true breeding as presented have mixed origin and charestics?

 

[The Shadow]

Here's the part I don't get. They're putting a half-orc writeup on DDi so that players with existing half-orc characters can start converting immediately.

But there won't be a full gnome writeup until 2009. How does this compute? There ARE people who play gnomes now, after all. I'd bet more than those who play half-orcs.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, in the original version of the story, Merlin's father was not an incubus but a "daemon", which at the time meant a higher rational creature made of air. They were often treated fictionally as very fey-like. (In fact, some people at the time theorized that fey might BE daemons, though that was always a minority opinion.)

 

[Azgulor]

Sorry, "associating/dealing with devils" strikes me as FAR more palatable than rape. Ask a woman.

Two points:

1 - You're falling for the assumption that the half-orc's existence must be based upon rape - the WotC implication.

2 - 4e is purportedly looking to attract younger gamers. If WotC is worried about avoiding "unpleasant" topics (so they can attract more gamers), why include a race tainted by infernal (i.e. devilish or demonic) powers as a core race ? Any parent worth a damn is going to look at their kid's purchases of RPG material, doubly so if they hear reports (exaggerated or not) about demonic subject matter. (I've been playing RPGs since 1st edition AD&D - so don't tell me it can't happen.)

They dropped gnomes without such a stupid objection, they could have done the same for the half-orc.

 

[Azgulor]

Here's the part I don't get. They're putting a half-orc writeup on DDi so that players with existing half-orc characters can start converting immediately.

But there won't be a full gnome writeup until 2009. How does this compute? There ARE people who play gnomes now, after all. I'd bet more than those who play half-orcs.

Didn't they also state that the rules would be so different that there was little point in converting?

 

[Pale Jackal]

Not that I would bring up the threat to a female player, but anyone using a more morally grey or dark setting is going to have to at least face the fact that it is an omnipresent truth of human history. In a more heroic high fantasy "Shining Heroes versus Ultimate Evil" sort of game, sure, it can be ignored, but if you're aiming for a "Cholera and Mud" sort of game, it can't just be handwaved away.

D&D isn't particularly grim in general, though, so I think the removal of the half-orc is hardly damaging to D&D.

Well, personally I find both could be distasteful to different groups of men and women depending on various factors.

There's truth to that. But we are playing D&D. The existence of magic in D&D, or various gods, could also be offensive. Demons physically exist, and forging dark pacts has its role (if not an outright staple) in fantasy literature.

Can the same be said of rape? Is there anyone who is NOT offended by the thought of rape?

Edit: Grammar.

 

[The Shadow]

Didn't they also state that the rules would be so different that there was little point in converting?

You can convert a character from any system to any system. The only question is how much work and creativity it will take.

There isn't going to be a simple formula for going from 3e to 4e, but it will assuredly be possible - there are playtest reports where they describe how it was actually *done*. (Emulating a psion using a wizard with different fluff, for example.)

 

[Darkwolf71]

Oh, please. Noone is saying that rape is acceptable or in anyway positive, but really. Just 'write it out of existance'?

"Oh no... some half-orcs are the product of rape! Better just ignore that. *wink wink*
We can think of a 'more acceptable' back story later."

Get. Off.

PC police have struck once more.

 

[Azgulor]

OK, I'm not seeing how there's any hypocrisy here. Can you go into more detail?

In my opinion, there's a big issue in terms of making the game woman-friendly with throwing rape into the core fluff of the game. That issue doesn't exist with the current tiefling backstory. So where's my hypocrisy, exactly?

It's in the whole - "making infernal pacts" aspect. The concept of making pacts with diabolical or demonic forces is at least as much a "mature topic" as rape to many people.

Also, I'm not arguing for the inclusion of rape in the half-orcs backstory or the removal of infernal pact/influence in the tieflings. I'm just saying that arguing one is bad but the other is acceptable is hypocritical thinking.

 

[Pale Jackal]

Two points:

1 - You're falling for the assumption that the half-orc's existence must be based upon rape - the WotC implication.

You're right, but I don't think it's a bad assumption. Orcs are a savage, violent species in almost all fantasy... so much that you cannot play a full-blooded orc. If they're not these brutal savages, why not just allow orcs?

2 - 4e is purportedly looking to attract younger gamers. If WotC is worried about avoiding "unpleasant" topics (so they can attract more gamers), why include a race tainted by infernal (i.e. devilish or demonic) powers as a core race ? Any parent worth a damn is going to look at their kid's purchases of RPG material, doubly so if they hear reports (exaggerated or not) about demonic subject matter. (I've been playing RPGs since 1st edition AD&D - so don't tell me it can't happen.)

They dropped gnomes without such a stupid objection, they could have done the same for the half-orc.

There's validity to that: but D&D has reverted to using "devils" and "demons", has always had multiple gods, and magic (yes, magic can be the death knell of D&D for some kids.) Ultimately, I think the tieflings might bring a "cool" factor (like the Dragonborn, which I would've loved to play when I was 12) that outweighs those concerns. Do half-orcs bring the same?

 

[buzz]

Well, personally I find both could be distasteful to different groups of men and women depending on various factors.

I'm just saying that arguing one is bad but the other is acceptable is hypocritical thinking.

Given that selling one's soul to an otherworldly being is a totally fictional concept, and rape is a horrific act of violence experienced by real people all over the world on a daily basis, I don't see how one could equate them even remotely.