D&D 4E 1/2 Orcs in 4E (Rich Baker scoop)

[Fallen Seraph]

From what I've read, most changelings aren't conceived with humans. Their just left with them. In fact what traditional source actually has a fae and a human experiencing an actual romance? If I'm wrong I'm willing to accept that, but none come to mind offhand.

Not quite the same but... Old-Norse/Scandinavian Trolls who are more Fae like then Trollish in their original form, have had romantic-relations with humans.

 

[Azgulor]

I'm pretty sure that's part of why the tiefling backstory has *changed* in 4E.

You mean to this?

Bael Turath: A tiefling empire which destroyed the dragonborn empire of Arkhosia in a Pyrrhic victory which left Bael Turath itself in ruins. Its once-human nobles transformed themselves into tieflings as the consequence of terrible pacts made with infernal powers. Also called the Hell-Chained Empire

Sorry, descended from humans who sold-their-souls/made infernal pacts, doesn't sound any less disturbing or ugly to me than being a product of rape. I still view both as valid sources of PC- or NPC-backstory. I also say that to be fine with the tiefling's origins but uncomfortable with the half-orc's is hypocrisy, especially given that the only ones forcing WotC to stick with the half-orc as a product of rape is WotC.

There are numerous reasons they could have cited for ditching the half-orc. I probably wouldn't have liked them all but I could have probably accepted them. The reason given for dropping the half-orc in 4e is a very weak one given the inclusion of the tiefling.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So, the other issue... the one that bothers me: part of the rules are going to be hidden from book-only customers on DDI.

As a hardcopy only gamer, this definitely ticks me off.

The more they put online only, the less I'll be interested in supporting them.

(To be perfectly clear, I won't give up gaming, just a particular version of one particular game.)

 

[IanB]

Aha! But that's the point. You can't just say "nevermind Elros and Elrond" especially because there's many Human/Elven pairings in Middle Earth. Aragorn & Arwen leap to mind, and while Aragorn is the offspring of Elros, and Arwen the daughter of Elrond, both of Elros and Elrond's parents had human-elf pairings in their ancestry. Elwing was descended from Beren & Luthien, and Earendil's parents were the human Tuor and the elf Idril. All were love matches.

You could also count the half-elven son of Tomas and Aglaranna from Raymond Feist's Riftwar - Calis, IIRC. He's the result of a love-match. There's also Shea Ohmsford from Terry Brooks' Sword of Shannara.

Going back even further, there's half-elves in the various nordic sagas, some of the them the products of rape, and some not. Heck, before Tolkien made it mean something else, the term "halfling" usually referred to a half-elf.

By contrast, the famous half-orcs that are the results of love matches are...??

Sorry, can't think of any...

IMO, they'd be better off to introduce a race inspired by the Norse "trollborn."

AFAIK, the Riftwar novels actually grew out of a D&D game, so similarities between a half-elf from that game and the D&D half-elf are inevitable.

My point in saying 'never mind Elros and Elrond' is because those guys pretty clearly *aren't* the D&D half-elf, though I don't doubt that's where the initial spark of an idea came from. Tanis on the other hand, very obviously *is* the D&D half-elf - and I would say has almost certainly had a bigger impact on how the half-elf has turned out in today's game.

Remember, there was a point at which the 'brooding troubled outsider' characters were tagged with the "Tanis wannabe" label, not the "Driz'zt wannabe" one.

But yes, the majority of half-elf concepts that I see these days are more of the 'tragic romance' variety rather than the 'tragic crime' sort. Which is progress, really - and half-orcs, outside of Eberron*, don't seem to lend themselves to that.

*However, note that with the differences between Eberron orcs and regular D&D orcs, you could pretty easily retcon all those half-orcs into orcs without much canon damage at all.

 

[Pale Jackal]

You mean to this?

Bael Turath: A tiefling empire which destroyed the dragonborn empire of Arkhosia in a Pyrrhic victory which left Bael Turath itself in ruins. Its once-human nobles transformed themselves into tieflings as the consequence of terrible pacts made with infernal powers. Also called the Hell-Chained Empire

Sorry, descended from humans who sold-their-souls/made infernal pacts, doesn't sound any less disturbing or ugly to me than being a product of rape. I still view both as valid sources of PC- or NPC-backstory. I also say that to be fine with the tiefling's origins but uncomfortable with the half-orc's is hypocrisy, especially given that the only ones forcing WotC to stick with the half-orc as a product of rape is WotC.

There are numerous reasons they could have cited for ditching the half-orc. I probably wouldn't have liked them all but I could have probably accepted them. The reason given for dropping the half-orc in 4e is a very weak one given the inclusion of the tiefling.

Sorry, "associating/dealing with devils" strikes me as FAR more palatable than rape. Ask a woman.

 

[IanB]

You mean to this?

Bael Turath: A tiefling empire which destroyed the dragonborn empire of Arkhosia in a Pyrrhic victory which left Bael Turath itself in ruins. Its once-human nobles transformed themselves into tieflings as the consequence of terrible pacts made with infernal powers. Also called the Hell-Chained Empire

Sorry, descended from humans who sold-their-souls/made infernal pacts, doesn't sound any less disturbing or ugly to me than being a product of rape. I still view both as valid sources of PC- or NPC-backstory. I also say that to be fine with the tiefling's origins but uncomfortable with the half-orc's is hypocrisy, especially given that the only ones forcing WotC to stick with the half-orc as a product of rape is WotC.

There are numerous reasons they could have cited for ditching the half-orc. I probably wouldn't have liked them all but I could have probably accepted them. The reason given for dropping the half-orc in 4e is a very weak one given the inclusion of the tiefling.

OK, I'm not seeing how there's any hypocrisy here. Can you go into more detail?

In my opinion, there's a big issue in terms of making the game woman-friendly with throwing rape into the core fluff of the game. That issue doesn't exist with the current tiefling backstory. So where's my hypocrisy, exactly?

 

[Voss]

We know they're going to publish compilations of D&D Insider material in book form from time to time, so this is absolutely no more problematic than the fact that the ninja class in Complete Adventurer first showed up in Dragon.

You're leaving out part of the statement, I believe. Weren't there qualifications on what content would be published? Words like 'some' and 'popular'?

 

[frankthedm]

So, the other issue... the one that bothers me: part of the rules are going to be hidden from book-only customers on DDI.

Thoughts?

This is the internet. So I'm none too worried on how 'exclusive' DDI content will be.

 

[Imaro]

Sorry, "associating/dealing with devils" strikes me as FAR more palatable than rape. Ask a woman.

Well, personally I find both could be distasteful to different groups of men and women depending on various factors.

 

[Professor Phobos]

Inappropriate for younger players, most likely, and also offensive to another segment, and on top of that, positing rape as a fact of life in the default game can definitely be seen as exclusionary to female players. Sure, it isn't quite in the same vein as Malcanthet's incubi, which are much more threatening in terms of potentially giving a DM license to have female characters actually threatened with rape, but that whole distasteful topic is actually relevant to the issue of why D&D doesn't have a larger population of female players.

I don't think it really belongs in the game for that reason alone. D&D can afford to let other games handle the subset of gamers for whom it is really important to have that in their game.

Not that I would bring up the threat to a female player, but anyone using a more morally grey or dark setting is going to have to at least face the fact that it is an omnipresent truth of human history. In a more heroic high fantasy "Shining Heroes versus Ultimate Evil" sort of game, sure, it can be ignored, but if you're aiming for a "Cholera and Mud" sort of game, it can't just be handwaved away.

EDIT: And the whole "female players" thing is a bit of a stretch, I think. It's a relatively obscure part of the game as is. Any gaming group with male participants clumsy enough to handle the subject tastelessly has probably driven off women already, to be honest.