15 Minute NPCs

[takasi]

Seriously: You're making much simpler (and lower powered) NPCs whose rules coverage is less than those of the PCs. These are not the core rules for 3rd edition D&D.

So what they're doing certainly won't hurt you, and it's nice to have your views vindicated and recognized as the Official Way To Do It, right?

I don't see this as a change to the rules though. It's just a change to the way the NPCs are generated. In the PHB 2 the recommendations and guidelines are presented better than in the DMG, but that doesn't mean the NPCs are going to be any weaker. In fact, due to the roles and focus, the NPCs built using the PHB 2 should hit the baseline. That's where a little variety would be nice. Hopefully in 4th edition they'll do this, and if not I'm sure some third party company will. They may have for 3.5, I'm just not aware of any off the top of my head. Anyone?

 

[takasi]

Stop restricting the characters in my game world to prove that a character can be made in 15 minutes.

Tell that to WotC.

 

[Set]

No. I want to tinker with characters, I want to make them correctly, and I want it to be fast enough that I can build an adventure full of interesting characters. All three. That's the rub that you seem to be missing. It's not enough to make them fast. If you can only make fast characters by skipping the other two requirements, you've implicitly conceded that making characters takes too long.

Ultimately, we'll all just have to wait and see if 4E fixes this for you, allowing you to make an adventure full of characters, make them interesting, and do it quickly.

I'm not sure all three options are compatible. If 4E characters can be churned out rapidly, even faster than copying out of the charts in the DMG or PHB2, then I'll be impressed.

If 4E can be customized and made interesting, as we do with feat selection and alternate class features (and some of us with prestige classes and templates), and *not* take extra time, I'll stand in awe of their reality-warping powers. I suspect that the process of selecting feats, choosing spells and choosing 'path' (in place of prestige class) is going to be as time-consuming as it is under 3.5 rules, with it *initially* appearing so much faster, if only because there won't be any other books to complicate things.

3.5 NPC design goes pretty darn fast if I'm just using Core, after all, especially with that handy set of charts in the DMG of each class by level! The only limit is how fast you can type, and how fast you can get your DMG open to the correct page.

 

[JohnSnow]

It doesn't qualify. One class, and it can be prestige. Do not tell me the point buy.

Fine.

16th-level Mystic Theurge. Human.

He's a boss encounter for 15th-level PCs. He should last at least 5 rounds, assuming he doesn't roll a 1 on a save.

Go.

 

[Storminator]

Fine.

16th-level Mystic Theurge. Human.

He's a boss encounter for 15th-level PCs. He should last at least 5 rounds, assuming he doesn't roll a 1 on a save.

Go.

Doesn't qualify.

PS

 

[takasi]

Fine.

16th-level Mystic Theurge. Human.

He's a boss encounter for 15th-level PCs. He should last at least 5 rounds, assuming he doesn't roll a 1 on a save.

Go.

OK, I'll start now. But he doesn't need to stand alone against a party for 5 rounds. That's a balance issue that I'm not concerned about. I usually throw multiple enemies at the party, which is suddenly a wild new concept in 4th edition.

 

[Mercule]

Tables and charts are developed independently of the DM, so NPCs are not metagamed based on the party composition.

Nor are they grounded in the setting. So much for simulation and narration. Winner: gamism.

It doesn't qualify. One class, and it can be prestige. Do not tell me the point buy.

How about concept, then? I don't care what the classes are, but he's 10th level. Build me a military commander who is purely martial, but has been surrounded by mind-readers for most of his military career and has taken appropriate precautions to avoid being controlled or read. His culture is isolated and secretive, and much of his equipment has a distinct appearance, especially the magic items. He leads a sizable army of orcs, gathered from the surrounding area. He is far from home and requires a means by which to communicate with his superiors that doesn't involve going through a subordinate. He will be supported by an enchanter (or telepath), a cleric/rogue, and an evoker. His staff has wintered in mountain cave complex while they prepare for a spring invasion. He is a tactical genius: what preparations has he made for a strike force invading his base?

And it sounds like your 'addicton to feats' is catering to gamism.

Nah. It's just too anime.

 

[iskurthi]

If 4E can be customized and made interesting, as we do with feat selection and alternate class features (and some of us with prestige classes and templates), and *not* take extra time, I'll stand in awe of their reality-warping powers. I suspect that the process of selecting feats, choosing spells and choosing 'path' (in place of prestige class) is going to be as time-consuming as it is under 3.5 rules, with it *initially* appearing so much faster, if only because there won't be any other books to complicate things.

It may be that they're "smoothing out" the time. Fewer options for spellcasters. More options for fighters. So spellcasters and that sort of character might take less, but things which were simple in 3.5 take more. It could be that there's a lot more stuff about creating non-optimized NPCs similar to the PHB2 tables.

 

[JohnSnow]

OK, I'll start now. But he doesn't need to stand alone against a party for 5 rounds. That's a balance issue that I'm not concerned about. I usually throw multiple enemies at the party, which is suddenly a wild new concept in 4th edition.

I'm not asking for massive endurance here. But if he's got a glass jaw and goes down in 1 or 2 rounds, you've scored a gargantuan "FAIL."

If you'll notice, I waived the "rocket tag" aspect of high-level play. Barring that, there's no reason he shouldn't last 5 rounds. But if the only way he can succeed on a middling value save is to roll high (15+), you've screwed up. Badly.

And I can throw together an NPC that presents no challenge in 15 minutes too. But that hardly proves anything.

 

[Gundark]

Okay, so do you spend a lot of time spying on me, or was it just a lucky guess?

Aparently we're living in parallel dimensions