1E help!

[DungeonMaester]

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=193373] Now that I have decided on a Edition, I need as much help as possible to fully undertsand (As much as a Dm should understand)

I only have the PHB right now so it is rather difficult. Trying to roll up characters to day proved to be difficult, although I thought I had a fairly firm grip after reading it over a few times.

Some things are what I read in the book and still do not understand, while others I can find in the DMG which is being sent tomorrow via snail mail thanks to DelversDungeon.

This is the List thus far:

Thaco: How it increases per character level
AC: I think I am doing it right, but the party seemed to easy to hit.
Hit adjustments: Weapons get bonuses to hit vrs varouis AC?
Saves: How is the Save figured (For magic and bonuses for class)
Psionics: Where does it say how many PP you get?

That is all I can think of at the moment.

Thanks for all the help.

---Rusty

 

[Corathon]

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=193373] Now that I have decided on a Edition, I need as much help as possible to fully undertsand (As much as a Dm should understand)

I only have the PHB right now so it is rather difficult. Trying to roll up characters to day proved to be difficult, although I thought I had a fairly firm grip after reading it over a few times.

Some things are what I read in the book and still do not understand, while others I can find in the DMG which is being sent tomorrow via snail mail thanks to DelversDungeon.

This is the List thus far:

Thaco: How it increases per character level
AC: I think I am doing it right, but the party seemed to easy to hit.
Hit adjustments: Weapons get bonuses to hit vrs varouis AC?
Saves: How is the Save figured (For magic and bonuses for class)
Psionics: Where does it say how many PP you get?

That is all I can think of at the moment.

Thanks for all the help.

---Rusty

Based on the end of the thread that you linked above, I assume that you're talking about first edition AD&D. With that in mind:

Tables giving what each class needs to hit are in the DMG.
A first level fighter or cleric with no other bonuses needs a 10 to hit AC 10 and a 20 to hit AC 0. A monster with 1 HD needs a 19 IIRC. If your party fighters have around AC 4, a 1 HD orc, e.g, should hit about 30% of the time (19-4 =15, so an orc has to roll 15 or higher to hit an AC 4 target).
Many people don't use the tables for weapon vs armor type. I do use them in my game, but you might want to ignore them, at least at first. That would be simpler.
Saving throw tables are given in the DMG. They are a function of class and level, and list the number that you have to roll (with bonuses added in) for a successful saving throw. Some magic items (such as rings or cloaks of protection) confer a bonus. High (15 or greater) Wisdom confers a bonus vs mental attacks like charm person. High (15 or greater) Dexterity confers a bonus vs things that can be dodged (e.g. fireball or dragon breath).
The psionic appendix in the back of the PHB describes how to compute psionic strength. IIRC, it's a d100 roll plus possible bonuses based on high Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Psionic Ability is twice that; that's the analog of PP.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Thaco: How it increases per character level
The combat matrices are in the DMG. Each class (fighter, cleric, thief, M-U) has its own table.

AC: I think I am doing it right, but the party seemed to easy to hit.
Not sure what I can tell you about this, particularly if you don't have the combat matrices to reference.

Hit adjustments: Weapons get bonuses to hit vrs varouis AC?
These are attack roll adjustments versus armor types. That is, use the AC table that lists the armor class that equiped armor gives, then use that resulting base AC with the table (Dex, magic, etc. is ignored in computing the AC for this purpose). Consider them wholly optional.

Saves: How is the Save figured (For magic and bonuses for class)
The saving throw tables are in the DMG.

Psionics: Where does it say how many PP you get?
All this info should be in the psionics appendix to the PHB.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Not much to add, except to say that if you download OSRIC you can use the combat matrices and saving throw table from there, until you get your DMG.

Also, I'd guess that the majority of 1E players don't use the weapon/armor-type adjustments, except maybe in special cases (duels, etc).

 

[thedungeondelver]

As the others have noted, all will be made clear when you get your DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE which should be in a few days, dude.

 

[DungeonMaester]

Based on the end of the thread that you linked above, I assume that you're talking about first edition AD&D. With that in mind:

Tables giving what each class needs to hit are in the DMG.
<snip>
Many people don't use the tables for weapon vs armor type. I do use them in my game, but you might want to ignore them, at least at first. That would be simpler.
Saving throw tables are given in the DMG. They are a function of class and level, and list the number that you have to roll (with bonuses added in) for a successful saving throw. Some magic items (such as rings or cloaks of protection) confer a bonus. High (15 or greater) Wisdom confers a bonus vs mental attacks like charm person. High (15 or greater) Dexterity confers a bonus vs things that can be dodged (e.g. fireball or dragon breath).
The psionic appendix in the back of the PHB describes how to compute psionic strength. IIRC, it's a d100 roll plus possible bonuses based on high Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Psionic Ability is twice that; that's the analog of PP.

Not much to add, except to say that if you download OSRIC you can use the combat matrices and saving throw table from there, until you get your DMG.

Also, I'd guess that the majority of 1E players don't use the weapon/armor-type adjustments, except maybe in special cases (duels, etc).

I noticed that link when I had first posted about oD&D which was put up a few times (Twiece I think) I clicked it this time..and you are right..This really clears up lot of my questions, and makes house rules go by-by.

As the others have noted, all will be made clear when you get your DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE which should be in a few days, dude.

I don't want to wait a few days

Does stabbing the UPS guy make it come 1d3 days sooner?

---Rusty

 

[Korgoth]

I don't want to wait a few days

Does stabbing the UPS guy make it come 1d3 days sooner?

---Rusty

Gee, I can tell who grew up on microwave ovens and MTV.

 

[Celebrim]

If I where starting a new 1st edition campaign, I'd likely want to steal the 3rd edition unarmed combat, grappling, trip and other special manuever rules.

I'd also want to give thieves and clerics iterative attacks per round at some level slower than a fighter.

I'd also want to replace infravision with darkvision, and bring in the scent ability to replace the shoddy tables in the DMG.

I'd also want to give magic users bonus spells for high ability, and steal the 0 level spell list to replace the UA cantrips.

The weapons vs. AC table is wonderful essential to the game in my opinion, but before it is really useful you have to figure out what sort of armor equivalent a monster is using. In some cases this is easy, because the designer for example helpfully writes that a Liche's armor class is the equivalent of a plate +1 and shield +1. Also, I find the extended one in the UA to be more useful, and that the table needs a bit of tweaking - particularly with axes - to give the most satisfactory results.

I'd suggest replacing the NWP (from the Wilderness/Dungeon Survival Guides and later) with something like the SIEGE rules for skills based off modified ability checks.

 

[Lanefan]

If I where starting a new 1st edition campaign, I'd likely want to steal the 3rd edition unarmed combat, grappling, trip and other special manuever rules.

Or dream up your own...I'm not sure any system handles these well; 3e's as good as any.

I'd also want to give thieves and clerics iterative attacks per day at some level slower than a fighter.

Huh? Or do you mean per round instead of per day? If so, it's easy to do; when the character fights as well as a 7th-fighter, it gets 3/2 attacks. The combat tables are in the DMG, or on the back of an old DM screen if you have one.

I'd also want to replace infravision with darkvision, and bring in the scent ability to replace the shoddy tables in the DMG.

I really like how infravision and ultravision work in 1e, and that they're different - creatures with infravision can see well in any natural darkness but only out to 60' or so; creatures with ultravision can see fine outside in darkness but not indoors or underground. 3e's darkvision is to me a step backward. Scent as a skill or ability, however, is one that could be improved.

I'd also want to give magic users bonus spells for high ability, and steal the 0 level spell list to replace the UA cantrips.

Agreed on bonus spells for high ability. However, be *very* careful with your cantrip idea, as many 3e 0th level spells are 1e 1st level spells; you might not have many 1st-level spells left. That, and many of the 3e 0th's are much more powerful than the average 1e cantrip.

One idea for 1e cantrips is to pare down the list considerably...combine all the various distraction cantrips into one, for example...and let people choose a set number from the shorter list (my list has about 25, and a MU can choose 3 less than their starting Int. score).

The weapons vs. AC table is wonderful essential to the game in my opinion, but before it is really useful you have to figure out what sort of armor equivalent a monster is using. In some cases this is easy, because the designer for example helpfully writes that a Liche's armor class is the equivalent of a plate +1 and shield +1. Also, I find the extended one in the UA to be more useful, and that the table needs a bit of tweaking - particularly with axes - to give the most satisfactory results.

If you want that level of detail and complexity, more power to ya!

Lanefan

 

[Celebrim]

Or dream up your own...I'm not sure any system handles these well; 3e's as good as any.

Did you ever use the grappling rules from the 1st edition DMG? I would say that 3e's better than most.

Or do you mean per round instead of per day?

Yeah, silly error on my part.

If so, it's easy to do; when the character fights as well as a 7th-fighter, it gets 3/2 attacks.

Maybe. First edition theives only fight as well as 3rd edition Wizards, so we are talking about being 12th level before going up to 3/2. That might be ok if we also adopted 3rd edition style 'sneak attacks' rather than the more restrictive 'back stab'. As a long time player of thieves in 1st edition, I eventually discovered and became rather peeved at the fact that the class offers basically nothing at higher levels except the pleasure of surviving by your wits alone. I can remember many cases where I could barely hit the monster and the fighter could barely miss, and where my 'skills' were basically obseleted by access to magic essentially superior to anything I could do - invisibility, divinations, flight, etc. As is, the only way to keep the class on par with other classes in power level is to dual/multi-class if you plan on playing one at higher levels.

I really like how infravision and ultravision work in 1e, and that they're different - creatures with infravision can see well in any natural darkness but only out to 60' or so; creatures with ultravision can see fine outside in darkness but not indoors or underground. 3e's darkvision is to me a step backward.

Not to me. I wouldn't mind a darkvision with the restriction 'outside only' or whatever. What I don't like and still remember with loathing is how the psuedo-scientific explanation lead to debate, rules lawyering, difficult to adjudicate situations, and so forth. Better to keep the functionality and strip off the confusing techno-babble.

However, be *very* careful with your cantrip idea, as many 3e 0th level spells are 1e 1st level spells; you might not have many 1st-level spells left.

There are what, 30 odd 1st level spells between the PH and UA alone to say nothing of the 100 or so in other supplements? Of those, only a handful (read and detect magic) were moved down to 0th level in 3rd edition. I think we'll manage.

That, and many of the 3e 0th's are much more powerful than the average 1e cantrip.

I believe that that is the point. The power level of the 3rd edition ones is much more appropriate. The 1st edition ones were fun, but they were mostly color. One of the many great things 3rd edition did for the game was give wizards something to do during the first 4-6 levels of the game, other than hide back and watch others do thier thing. Playing a low level wizard was boring in 1st edition, and even when you finally made it to 5th level and got the almighty fireball/lightning bolt, it still meant basically that you were a one shot wonder for several levels.

If you want that level of detail and complexity, more power to ya!

It's good for the game. First edition has very little mechanical flavor and interest in its combats. That level of detail and complexity creates some really interesting choices, deals with some otherwise versimilitude breaking outcomes, tends to balance longswords with other weapon choices (so that longsword and board isn't just about the only way to go), tends to balance monsters with PC's a little better so that you can stay in 1st editions 'sweet spot' longer, and so forth.

Now, other things I would advise to someone going back to 1st edition.

Don't use 1st editions overly complex initiative system. I'm not even sure that Gygax used it. The third edition system works just fine.

Do use the rule that iterative attacks alternate, rather than coming all at once. This keeps high level fighters from taking down most monsters without facing a threat.

Do not use critical hit charts. They can be sorta fun, but they shorten combats game duration, increase combats play duration, and in the long run benefit the monsters more than the PC's and will lead to unnecessary player death/mutilation.

Do allow the alternate rule that no one dies until -10 hit points.

Do not give into the temptation to allow weapon specialization. Not only does it make the fighter over powering and over dominating of play at low levels, but it leads to uninteresting play. No one is not going to take WS, the benefits are just too clear.

Do not assume that a Paladin is a UA Cavelier. The Paladin class is a bit powerful as it is without bundling in all sorts of new special abilities.

Do not allow the UA alternate races. The 1st edition races aren't really that balanced to begin with, and making NPC races playable just leads to cheese, especially at low levels where PC level restrictions aren't even going to be coming into play. As an alternate rule, if you do allow them I suggest XP penalties (-10%, -20% wild elves, grey elves, -30% underdark races) for those races which are clearly stronger than the PH races.

Do pay attention to the item saving throw rules. If you are going back to 1st edition, one of the joys amongst the frustration will be the character as hero rather than the character's equipment. Item saving throws help reinforce that its about the guy that wields the sword, not the sword.