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1E Immersion VS Thespian Acting

fusangite

First Post
Valiant said:
I've seen these 2 words thrown around alot to explain the player experiance in D&D. What are the differences and similarities between these 2 terms?

I see immersion as:
1. Using your imagination to experiance the setting presented by the DM while you move about it.
2. Experiance this setting threw the PC(s) you control (you "are" that PC). This is either done threw the eyes of the PC or watching the PC (as if viewing the seen). Mental pictures aren't necessary however. But when your PC gets hit, you feel it.

3. Falling into the role of the PC but maintaining your out of game personality. The point isn't that you take on a new personality, rather "its you" only with a new body and skills you don't really have in real life.

Thespian Acting (as used in this site) seems to relate to the player who:
1. Acts out everything in 1st person, where imagination takes back seat to entertaining friends. Whats important isn't the show going on in your heads but the show going on at the table.
2. Typically the player falls into the role of the PC and attempts to loose their real life personality (or identity). This is difficult to express in words. It reminds me of character actors who try to become that personality (leaving there own).
3. Its heavily story driven usually (at least at its most annoying).

Would you agree with these definitions?
I guess if we understood them as poles in a continuum rather than as distinct and separate styles that do not overlap, I wouldn't have a problem. But this also doesn't mean that I prefer your heuristic to alternative modes of categorizing play. Similarly, while I would agree that the numbered elements of "acting" and "immersion" do seem to correlate positively to one another but I don't think the correlation is as strong as you perceive. Also, I would argue that you (2) in the "thespian acting" list is actually a better fit with the "immersion" category. I think all that it has in common with the acting category is that it is a gaming habit that annoys you (it annoys me too) but I find it pretty evenly distributed between the two groups.

Nevertheless, I do think that the general issue you are getting at is an interesting one. The fact is that there is an increasing interest in seeing gaming as democratized narrative generation. Often, as a result, dialogue in the game becomes a performance of what it has already been agreed will happen rather than a real-time part of evolving play; character sheets begin to fill up with mechanics for players acting directly on narrative unmediated by their character.

I guess where I diverge from your view is that I don't see one style as intrinsically preferable. While I, like you, have an interest in seeing the game as a world-centred rather than story-centred experience. But that's just my personal taste. I like it better but I see people who have a lot of fun in story-centred experiences where the player functions as an co-author/actor rather than in a more immersive experience. People who like that kind of gaming get different payoffs than I do.

What I have noticed, and perhaps this is where your post's partisanship and apparent intolerance is coming from, is that people who are interested in your second mode of play are more assertive about this than they used to be. In recent years, online communities like the Forge have helped these people find eachother more effectively; as a result, there are more games that are well-suited to this kind of player.
I realize in 2E immersion seems to change in meaning, and then again in 3E, thats why I've limited it to 1E (and OD&D as well I suppose).
Let's face it. The term "immersion" has had so many different, slippery, vague, colloquial definitions in the gaming world that, at this point, it is probably best avoided altogether. It has had simply too many meanings to make attempting to stabilize them worthwhile.
 

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Valiant

First Post
I don't believe immersion and Thespian Acting (or just acting out in general) are extremes of the same continuim really. Rather I think Acting is simply a tool (one of many) that can be used (by player or DM) to either help or hinder (or have no net effect) immersion.


I suppose different people play D&D for different (primary) reasons (though everyone likely experiances some satisfaction in all of these aspects). Some play for the immersion experiance (that would be me), some for tactics, some to generate and build their PC (mostly a 3E phenomina) and some play to thespian act (which can be annoying depending on how its done).
Not everyone has the imagination to immerse (or picture) the world described by the DM. But, to just hang out with buddies and play, they find other things that they focus on. There is nothing wrong with that.
 
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GreatLemur

Explorer
For the love of God, stop saying "Thespian Acting". It's redundant. You might as well be saying "Actor Acting".

Also, your implication that people who "act" their characters do so because they lack the imagination to "immerse" is pretty bizarre, and probably a really bad limb to climb out on.
 

Valiant

First Post
GreatLemur said:
For the love of God, stop saying "Thespian Acting". It's redundant. You might as well be saying "Actor Acting".

Also, your implication that people who "act" their characters do so because they lack the imagination to "immerse" is pretty bizarre, and probably a really bad limb to climb out on.


Thespian acting is not my term, I found it here at ENworld some time back (and its bantard around alot on many boards). ;) And I don't suggest that ALL people who thespian act can't or don't enjoy immersion in the game, infact, I just said in the above post likely everyone experiances all 3 aspects to some degree (immersion, tactics, and acting). I'm sure some that prefer immersion to anything else also partake in frequent acting out in a lively fashion. So, if you think I'm trying to imply everyone who thespian acts lacks an ability to imagine or immerse, your incorrect. Another poster compared it to reading a play vs. acting it out. I think thats a fair analogy.

Anyhow, the point of this post was to figure out how they might inter-relate, not to hurt anyones feelings. So my apologies if I have.
 
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Valiant

First Post
Thespian defined (by dictionary.com) " pertaining to tragedy or to the dramatic art in general.". So a thespian actor is probably more dramatic, over the top kind of acting (as if on stage and your voice and gestures have to carry to distant seats). Not all acting styles enphasise "dramatics". thespian is used as an adjective here rather then a noun, so IMO is legit.

Anyhow, most people have a mental image of what this means.
 
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ivocaliban

First Post
My first response to this thread was "What's wrong with acting?" For me (as a DM) many of the best moments in my games occured when everyone at the table was "in character." Then I realized what you were aiming at here. It isn't acting...it's overacting. It's that sort of overacting that borders on insanity. You know...like LARPing...only without the funny clothes. (I kid.)

Seriously, though. I remembering roleplaying in a Vampire: The Masquerade game back when I was in college. There were four or five of us involved, but one of the gamers took things just a little too seriously and too far. He was playing a female Malkavian (for those of you who don't know that's a crazy vampire) who had been embraced during adolescence (these facts alone should have been enough to tell us what we were in for) and spent an entire scene perched on a barstool. At one point, he eventually leapt from the stool at another player (all "in-character," of course)...and that was pretty much the end of that game. And the end of that gaming group, I might also add.

So, yes. Call it "method overacting" if you will, but I have known people who refuse to divorce themselves from their characters once the game has started. Whether they're leaping from the furniture while bearing their fangs or just refusing to acknowledge the existence of coca-cola in the Hyborian Age, this is intolerable. But I agree with GreatLemur in that the phrase "thespian acting" is both redundant and (possibly) inaccurate for what you're trying to get across.

Either way, trust me...it could be worse. ;)
 
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GreatLemur

Explorer
Valiant said:
Thespian defined (by dictionary.com) " pertaining to tragedy or to the dramatic art in general.". So a thespian actor is probably more dramatic, over the top kind of acting (as if on stage and your voice and gestures have to carry to distant seats). Not all acting styles enphasise "dramatics". thespian is used as an adjective here rather then a noun, so IMO is legit.

Anyhow, most people have a mental image of what this means.
Yeah, to echo ivocaliban, the more you describe the phenomenon, the more it sounds like you ought to just call it overacting, particularly since you seem to only be talking about a style of roleplaying that takes the behavior to obnoxious levels, as opposed to players who just speak in character.
 

Valiant

First Post
GreatLemur said:
Yeah, to echo ivocaliban, the more you describe the phenomenon, the more it sounds like you ought to just call it overacting, particularly since you seem to only be talking about a style of roleplaying that takes the behavior to obnoxious levels, as opposed to players who just speak in character.


That works for me. ;)
 

Halivar

First Post
I think it's a false dichotomy. Further, I disagree with just about all the characterizations in the OP. His group has probably got some really hammy roleplayers in it, which can be just as annoying as the laconic powergamer.

Good acting (what I call "roleplaying") is always good and contributive to immersion, and never IMXP has it detracted from the game.
 

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