Quasqueton
First Post
Can a party of 1st-level characters make it through the [original] Tomb of Horrors? What about the dungeon requires the abilities of characters of 10th to 14th level?
Quasqueton
Quasqueton
1st-level characters in the Tomb of Horrors
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
Quasqueton said:
Probably not. Each trap would probably kill most of the party. Even the ones they found, which would be very unlikly. Then of course what few monsters are in the dungeon, would be so much more powerful then the party.
The checks needed to find the traps. The saves needed to survive. How tough the few monsters are. Finaly the final mob at the end. That encounter alone can still kill the entire party even at 14th+ level.Quasqueton said:
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Quasqueton said:
High saving throws. There are the pit traps in the main entryway filled with save-or-die poison spikes (six each). Even ignoring that, the mere fall would kill many 1st-level AD&D characters.
There are at least two combat encounters (the fake lich which is in fact a zombie with lots of hit dice) and the four-armed gargoyle; more if the party winds up in the hall of animated weapons or opens the chest containing the giant's skeleton. Then of course there's the blood that will gush into a corridor and turn into a red ochre jelly if levitate is cast on it.
The find/remove traps ability of thieves needs to be way, way higher than it is at 1st level here, as well.
Finally, battling Acererak at the end...the to-hits versus the skull pretty much demand high level characters. Of course, the real methods of dealing with the demi-lich are magical and aren't available to 1st level characters.
I'd consider a large party of 4th-6th level characters, provided they were run by very experienced AD&D players up to the challenge - maybe, if they had a large quantity of magic items with them.
Quasqueton
First Post
Most tales of surviving and completing this adventure revolve around the *Players* being smart, cautious, creative, etc., more so than the characters’ powers/abilities. Most tales have the party avoiding traps by discovering them through inventive means, not by using the detect traps ability/spell. For instance, you don’t need good saves if you avoid the traps altogether. Most people who have claimed to successfully navigated the tomb never mention using advanced magic – most claims are of *Player* ingenuity.
And isn’t fighting the demi-lich at the end actually “falling” for a trap? For instance, Gygax said that Robilar successfully sacked the dungeon by Player smarts and caution, and he grabbed the “free” treasure and left the demi-lich’s stuff alone, thereby winning and avoiding the final trap.
Quasqueton
And isn’t fighting the demi-lich at the end actually “falling” for a trap? For instance, Gygax said that Robilar successfully sacked the dungeon by Player smarts and caution, and he grabbed the “free” treasure and left the demi-lich’s stuff alone, thereby winning and avoiding the final trap.
Quasqueton
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Quasqueton said:
That's all very true, but there is a room with a creature in it that will kill at least two 1st-level characters every round: the four-armed gargoyle. It isn't avoidable, it isn't negotiable.
painandgreed
First Post
I looked into it at the last long discussion about the ToH. IIRC, assuming a 1st level party who knew all the secrets of the Tomb or was able to have their orc servants go down the halls "searching for traps", still could not get the treasure and leave. There is one choke point where a higher level spell is needed to continue that they would not normally have. With the aid of a higher level M-U, they could do it.
Edit to add: and the gargoyle is apparently unavoidable
Edit to add: and the gargoyle is apparently unavoidable
Henry
Autoexreginated
Quasqueton said:
I would say that, for the most part, it's doable; but as you said, the players would have to be about as cautious as a navy SEAL team, and almost have to KNOW where all the traps and secrets are. The higher levels means that the players can screw up more.
The Zombie-fake-lich, for example, can be avoided if a secret door is found; the Lich can be avoided by not taking his stuff.I'm trying to think really hard, and I can't recall a single trap in the place that couldn't be avoided and gone around with almost-prescient actions.That's the one I was forgetting. No way around him, but you could probably defeat him if you were about 6th level or so, couldn't you?TheDungeonDelver said:
Are there any other totally unavoidables?
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I've run this adventure for a group of 2 1st level characters (a fighter and a thief) and they survived/won. Most of the traps will be just as deadly for a 10th level character as for a 1st (i.e. you trigger it, you die) and almost all of the challenges are avoidable. The one issue that actually stands out most in my mind as needing nerfing for 1st level characters is the room very early on where the party has to open a series of secret doors and every round a magic missile strikes one of the party members for automatic damage. For 10th level characters this is an annoyance but the damage itself is negligible (unless they take a really long time to get the doors open), for 1st level characters (especially when there's only 2 of them) it's almost guaranteed death. I don't remember these characters fighting the 4-armed gargoyle -- are you sure that room isn't avoidable? At the end I believe they ran off with the treasure without fighting the demilich (or maybe they used some sort of outside-the-box technique to defeat it; I no longer remember -- it's been 18 or 19 years!).
The 10-14th level recommendation is more on the player level (if you've been playing long enough to get a character to 10-14th level you're probably good enough to beat this module) than the character level -- high level characters have more options and more room for error (better saves (in those few cases which allow saves), access to more divination-type magic to gain hints, monster summoning to gain trap-fodder mooks (if they're of non-good alignment), raise dead (if a body can be recovered), teleport (get me outta here!), etc.) whereas the first mistake a 1st level character makes will also be his last, but other than that (and the couple unavoidables mentioned above) there's no reason a 1st level character played by a clever/experienced player couldn't beat this adventure (or at least make it to the end).
Anyone who's counting on their high level character's superior hp and saves to allow them to bull through this adventure (I'm tough enough to survive these traps!) is almost certainly going to lose his character, whatever level he is (well, maybe not if he's 25th or 30th level, but YKWIM).
The 10-14th level recommendation is more on the player level (if you've been playing long enough to get a character to 10-14th level you're probably good enough to beat this module) than the character level -- high level characters have more options and more room for error (better saves (in those few cases which allow saves), access to more divination-type magic to gain hints, monster summoning to gain trap-fodder mooks (if they're of non-good alignment), raise dead (if a body can be recovered), teleport (get me outta here!), etc.) whereas the first mistake a 1st level character makes will also be his last, but other than that (and the couple unavoidables mentioned above) there's no reason a 1st level character played by a clever/experienced player couldn't beat this adventure (or at least make it to the end).
Anyone who's counting on their high level character's superior hp and saves to allow them to bull through this adventure (I'm tough enough to survive these traps!) is almost certainly going to lose his character, whatever level he is (well, maybe not if he's 25th or 30th level, but YKWIM).
PapersAndPaychecks
First Post
Quasqueton said:
I think, principally:
Raise dead
Monster summoning
Animate dead
Commune
Contact other plane
Passwall
Wizard eye
etc.
A party that gets through ToH without serious casualties will probably have used all those spells.
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Henry said:
A larger party with some ranged attacks, sure. As to other unavoidables...let me check...hang on...
That looks like about it. The room with the animated weapons is 27. THE PORTAL OF SCINTILLATING VIOLET and is not required to enter to escape the dungeon...unless you're teleported to 27.A. The Chamber of Hopelessness from 25.A. and that's not a given...
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