2-D maps or 3-D terrain?

[shoggothic]

There is also 2.5 D - where walls are just assumed, but important stuff like doors, fireplaces, etc. are 3D.

The Auld Grump,

I like what you and SavageRobby have to say about the synthesis of both worlds. Do you think the 3-D furnishings would just get in the way and bumped around by all the miniatures on the table?
And, with a grid based system, like d20, isn't cover/furniture only really just a bonus or minus to hit, and so not relevant as a physical representation? Hero Quest was my inspiration for this idea btw!

 

[TheAuldGrump]

The Auld Grump,

I like what you and SavageRobby have to say about the synthesis of both worlds. Do you think the 3-D furnishings would just get in the way and bumped around by all the miniatures on the table?
And, with a grid based system, like d20, isn't cover/furniture only really just a bonus or minus to hit, and so not relevant as a physical representation? Hero Quest was my inspiration for this idea btw!

Tables, desks, etc. can be bumped around, putting a bit of weight inside can help this a lot - for boxy ones just glue or tape a large washer inside before folding it closed. I have also considered using some temporary 'post it' tape, where the tackiness will hold it.

I find that having tables and other such things on the board makes it much more likely that PCs will jump on them, to gain that all important +1 for higher ground, throw a fireball over a fighter's head, or just for the satisfying noise that the glassware makes as he kicks it onto the floor. While there may not make much mechanical difference you will find players taking much more advantage of such things.

I still have my old HeroQuest game, and use the terrain from time to time.

The Auld Grump

 

[Kristian Serrano]

Amaril,

I had considered the WoTC tiles, but felt that they too woul be too limiting, much like the Skeletonkey Games tiles...they look really good, but I can't really use those unless I'm playing homebrew adventures. Right now I'm trying to recreate or emulate exisitng maps for modlues like Sunless Citadel and Shackled City Adventure Path. I guess I could cut them up and tape them together but that seems like a step backwards. Will have to check out those Bendy Dungeon Walls though!

I had the exact same problem, but then I realized a few things:
1. Approximations of room shapes are just as good.
2. Bendy Walls will help with those odd shapes
3. Placing the tiles and walls on top of a gridded mat such as a vinyl mat allow you to draw in the terrains for which tiles don't exist.

 

[SavageRobby]

Tables, desks, etc. can be bumped around, putting a bit of weight inside can help this a lot - for boxy ones just glue or tape a large washer inside before folding it closed. I have also considered using some temporary 'post it' tape, where the tackiness will hold it.

I find that having tables and other such things on the board makes it much more likely that PCs will jump on them, to gain that all important +1 for higher ground, throw a fireball over a fighter's head, or just for the satisfying noise that the glassware makes as he kicks it onto the floor. While there may not make much mechanical difference you will find players taking much more advantage of such things.

What the Grump says about PCs using the scenery, in my experience, is absolutely true. When I started using 3D props, suddenly my players (well, their characters) were doing things they'd never done before (likely because my skill at colorful description is wanting) - jumping on tables, bashing chairs over heads, that kind of thing. One of the first 3D scenarios I did was a bridge scene, and my players had an absolute blast with it - and I had a blast DMing it, because of the kinds of things they were doing (throwing people over it, jumping off of it, hiding behind columns, etc). That one scene really opened my eyes to the value of terrain on the table. The more props they get, the more creative they are with them.

Tiles such as those by WotC, SKG and Fat Dragon can be really useful, too. Like Amaril says, approximations are good. I usually prebuild a dungeon with the tiles as closely as I can, then sketch it out or snap a picture for reference. One of the nice things about printables is that you can trim them to your heart's content. Don't have a 30' x 40' room? Trim a 40' x 40' room.

 

[Zaukrie]

I have run Sunless Citadel with Fatdragongames, skeletonkeygames and WotC tiles. I think 3D props are awesome. I think walls are ok/good, but can get in the way.

As someone said, I approximate the size of rooms with these tiles. It is amazing how the precise measures won't matter to you over time. Worldworksgames is also very good, but I prefer fatdragongames for the most part for 3D. O0negames also has great 2D tiles. There are huge numbers of promo tiles, try them and see how they work.

I also often use Heroscape terrain, even though it is hexes. It worked great for the final battle scene in the citadel.

 

[shoggothic]

Thanks for the input guys, it really helped steer me toward making a better game for my Players. The 3-D props on 2-D (or 2.5-D, as The Auld Grump put it!) is the way to go I think, as I would like a descent environment and some ambiance to go with all my nicely painted minis. Thanks again!

Regards,
Greg

 

[Festivus]

Hmm, interesting concept. It would certainly save me the time of having to recreate the map in another program. What kind of scanner do you use and do you lose any quality when blowing up maps that fit on the inside back of the module (i.e. Sunless Citadel) or map booklets (i.e. Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil)? Also, what kind of Paint program do you use?

Thanks again for the assistance Festivus!

Whenever possible, I just extract images from the PDFs I own (easy since Paizo puts them online). For those I don't have PDFs (like Red Hand of Doom), I brought them to work where I scanned them with a HP 9050MFP. In either case, you want as much resolution as you can get, because when you scale them up the flaws and pixelization will appear. You do lose a little clarity but it's not terrible.

For paint program I use Microsoft Paint... the free one that comes with Windows. I use Gimp for image manipulation (such as resizing)... it's also free. Lastly, I use Acrobat Pro 6.0 (because it's waaaay better than any of the subsequent versions).

 

[Kristian Serrano]

JSYK, I should be getting my Bendy Dungeon Walls today and expect to play with them a bit this evening. If anyone is interested in their effectiveness, let me know, and I'll post something short and sweet in this thread.

Regarding electronic set ups, their great from a geeky point of view, but unless you have hundreds of dollars you want to spend on an upside down projector rigging, it's not worth it IMHO. I've been using MapTool at my game table, and it's a fun tool to use, but such a setup is still lacking and takes up time to set up and support (not all players are going to read up on the latest news and developments for MapTool).

Having said that, MapTool certainly does have some cool features such as vision and fog of war, but it just wasn't worth it to me in the end. I went back to using a physical, tangible set up and noticed that my players seemed more engaged as they had to divert their eyes to the table rather than glazing over a laptop. We became engaged with one another again, which I didn't realize we had lost with the MapTool set up.

Overall, I think electronic setups are really cool, but I'll leave it for Internet play only.

As an aside, I do still plan to use MapTool on a secondary display with low resolution maps to reveal the dungeon as they explore it and will use the physical pieces to set up the encounters on the table.

 

[Zaukrie]

Yes, please let us know how well the walls work. I've read concerns about their longevity and ability to stand up on short straight lines.

 

[Kristian Serrano]

Yes, please let us know how well the walls work. I've read concerns about their longevity and ability to stand up on short straight lines.

Oh great. Thanks for telling me this NOW!

I don't think such a setup would be common, but you never know. I could see a few simple workarounds:
1. Place 1 perpendicular wall on each end.
2. Use some removable adhesive putty on the bottom of the ends.
3. Make whichever player shows up last hold up such walls for the night as punishment. j/k

Can you send me a link to where you read that?