2 Qs: metamagic, incantatrix, and archmage

[Thanee]

Dropping a school... necromancy, illusion or enchantment.

I'd drop necromancy, personally, I like enchantment and illusion too much.

Oh, and don't forget, that you keep the spells you learned until you became an incantatrix, so you can get all the nifty 1st thru 3rd level spells from the school you are dropping and only lose out on the higher ones.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Falling Icicle]

I'm playing a Wizard 5/Incantatar (the male Incantatrix) 4 right now. I have Extend Spell, Empower Spell and Enlarge spell so far. I plan on getting Maximize, Quicken, Silent and Still later, and maybe also Twin spell.

I've found Extend spell to be extremely useful. Not only for putting on my own spells, but my allies as well. It's probably not quite as useful for a Sorcerer since you can just cast the spell again if it runs out, but it could still be great for using on your friends' spells.

I'm not sure if this is legal, but can't you cast, say, Mage Armor on yourself, and then use Metamagic Effect to put Extend spell on it? It is an existing spell effect within 5 feet, after all. The same would be very cool with the various buff, Polymorph and Invisibility spells too. It saves you the higher level spell slot, too.

I've always found that when I play a Sorcerer the various metamagics that alter the spell's affect, area, and range are very handy. A Sorcerer can go into a battle and decide that a Widened Fireball would be perfect at that time. Or maybe he is just too far away for Phantasmal killer, so he Enlarges it. Wizards just can't do that, since they have to plan ahead of time.

I still haven't decided whether I want to go Archmage or not. It has some awesome abilities, but I hate the requirement of two Spell Focus feats (especially now), and giving up spell slots is much harder to swallow as a Wizard than as a Sorcerer.

[EDIT] P.S. the school I chose to drop was Necromancy. It was hard, since there are alot of low level Necromancy spells I like (Ray of Enfeeblement, False Life, and Vampiric Touch in particular). But giving up another school would have been ever harder for me to do. The Incantatar's abilities are more than worth it though.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Oh, and don't forget, that you keep the spells you learned until you became an incantatrix, so you can get all the nifty 1st thru 3rd level spells from the school you are dropping and only lose out on the higher ones.

Oh how I wish that were true. Unfortunately, unlike the red Wizard prestige class, the Incantatrix doesn't say you keep the spells you had already learned. It is just as if you had it dropped from being a specialist Wizard.

 

[Thanee]

I'm pretty sure, that's just been overlooked. I mean what's going to happen with spells you already learned (even moreso as a sorcerer than as a wizard)?

The 3.0 version had this and all 3.5 classes so far have it too. No reason, why the incantatrix should be any different in handling this.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Falling Icicle]

I'm pretty sure, that's just been overlooked. I mean what's going to happen with spells you already learned (even moreso as a sorcerer than as a wizard)?

The 3.0 version had this and all 3.5 classes so far have it too. No reason, why the incantatrix should be any different in handling this.

I totally agree with you. But legally, by the book, you lose the ability to cast those spells and can't even use spells of that school from items anymore.



I hope this gets errata. If not, oh well. The only Necromancy spells I ever used were the three I mentioned earlier, and I can live without them.

 

[Thanee]

I totally agree with you. But legally, by the book, you lose the ability to cast those spells and can't even use spells of that school from items anymore.

Actually, the book doesn't say anything at all about what happens with spells you already know...

That case is simply not covered (because it's irrelevant) in the school specialization for the wizard.

And if you go by the book, a sorcerer wouldn't have any impact at all by choosing a prohibited school, since it only affects wizards.

It's really pretty obvious, how this has to work.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Falling Icicle]

Actually, the book doesn't say anything at all about what happens with spells you already know...

That case is simply not covered (because it's irrelevant) in the school specialization for the wizard.

And if you go by the book, a sorcerer wouldn't have any impact at all by choosing a prohibited school, since it only affects wizards.

It's really pretty obvious, how this has to work.

"At 1st level, the incantatrix gives up a school of magic so as to focus more on the remaining schools." .... "This prohibited school is in addition to any others already chosen due to school specialization."
PGtF p.62, emphasis mine.

Now, what do you think that "gives up" means? It doesn't say "gives up from that point on, but keeps what he has already learned". And later it says that the forbidden school is in addition to any schools already given up through specialization, indicating that it works in the same exact manner. And if you look at the rules for specialization in the PHB, it flat out prhibits any and all access to the prohibited school, even from items. And Sorcerers are never excluded from this drawback of the class, so don't even start that.

The Red Wizard class is extremely explicit that you keep the spells you already know and retain the ability to use those spells from items. The Incantatrix offers no such leniancy. This may even be deliberate, considering how powerful the Incantatrix prestige class is. Though I do agree that it would be nice if they would clarify this for us, it still seems pretty clear cut to me.

As for Sorcerers, well in 3.5 they have the option to swap spells when they go up in level. Swapping out spells that you can no longer use for ones that you can is certainly something I would recommend.

[EDIT] P.S. Here are some dictionary definitions for "give up" that should help to clarify this:

To cease to do or perform, to desist from, to part with; relinquish, to abandon.

Obviously a smoker who "gives up" smoking was able to smoke before giving it up. In any case, you can't give up something that you didn't have to begin with.

 

[James McMurray]

Sorcerers can swap out spell, Incantatrixes cannot. That means if you go into Incantatrix as a sorcerer and lose access to some of your spells, you are screwed until you take more sorcerer levels, use a wish, or wheedle your DM into letting you drop spells and replace them.

I'd suggest being very cautious when heading towards Inantatrix with a sorcerer.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Sorcerers can swap out spell, Incantatrixes cannot. That means if you go into Incantatrix as a sorcerer and lose access to some of your spells, you are screwed until you take more sorcerer levels, use a wish, or wheedle your DM into letting you drop spells and replace them.

I'd suggest being very cautious when heading towards Inantatrix with a sorcerer.

Isn't the ability to swap spells part of the benefits of "+1 caster level" of a Sorcerer?

 

[Thanee]

The formulations can mean anything...

"give up" could mean stop studying as well as forget whatever you knew about it.

"spells are not available" (from the prohibited school explanation) could mean, that you lose access to them, or that you cannot learn them anymore.

As I said, it's simply not ruled what happens with spells known.

Whatever it is. Common sense dictates, that you do not suddenly forget stuff you have learned. If it were some kind of ethical restriction (like druids using nonmetal armor), sure, but it's simply the fact, that you stop studying one school to focus on other fields that leads to the prohibited school.

And Sorcerers are never excluded from this drawback of the class, so don't even start that.

Where is that rule?

It's just common sense, that sorcerers work "just like wizards" in this case.
So, why apply common sense to one but not to the other?

You can't say, that it makes sense, what you claim, or can you?

And speaking of balance... now Red Wizard is really a weak PrC in comparison.

Got a question for you... Can the Archmage add his level to the caster level when casting spells?

It does not say so in the class description, but in the Red Wizard class description it quite clearly says so. So - obviously - only Red Wizards gain caster level and spells per day, Archmages only get spells per day (hey, they can still get Spell Power to increase their caster level, right?)!

Bye
Thanee