2 Qs: metamagic, incantatrix, and archmage

[Thanee]

And until they errata it, we can either take it as it is, or house rule it.

That's what I do. Take it as it is. There is no information on how to handle the case present (only vague descriptions that could mean anything), so I refer to the example of what choosing a prohibited school later on means in the Red Wizard PrC since both do the exact same thing "must choose a school as a prohibited school". One PrC actually explains what it means, the other does not.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Falling Icicle]

That's what I do. Take it as it is. There is no information on how to handle the case present (only vague descriptions that could mean anything), so I refer to the example of what choosing a prohibited school later on means in the Red Wizard PrC since both do the exact same thing "must choose a school as a prohibited school". One PrC actually explains what it means, the other does not.

So let me get this straight. The text is, to your own admission, vague and lacking enough information. So you just fill in whatever interpretation you care to come up with, and then have the audacity to call it official?

I can't believe this.

Read the Incantatrix class. Nothing else. It doesn't matter how some Red Wizard in some other book works. It doesn't matter at all. All that matters is what is written under the rules for that class. You can feel free to use another class as an example for changes you wish to make to your own game, of course. You can change, edit, add to or do anything you want in your game, but don't try and get away with calling your house rules and rule edits and clarifications official.

And this is not the first time that an ability that is similar or even has the same name has worked differently for one class than it does for another. Try checking out the Hide in Plain Sight abilities of the Ranger and the Shadowdancer. Hmmm. They aren't identical now are they? One is supernatural, one is extraodinary. One works when within range of a shadow, the other works in natural environments. And they even have the same name!

Ha ha. Gotcha.

The Enhanced Specialization of the Red Wizard and the Focused Studies of the Incantatrix are similar, but they don't have the same name and they don't have the same description. And as I've pointed out, you can't just go looking at another class for its rules even if the names of the abilities are identical. Only what is written for that class counts, not what is written for some other class.

It does not say anywhere in the Incantatrix class that they retain the spells they have already learned from the prohibited school or that they can continue to use those spells from items. And until something comes out that officially changes that, that's how it is. Like it or not. "Common sense" or not. Believable or not. Red Wizard or not. That is the way it is. I suggest you deal with it.

 

[Thanee]

It does not say anywhere in the Incantatrix class that they retain the spells they have already learned from the prohibited school or that they can continue to use those spells from items.

It doesn't say anything about not being able to use them as well, especially in the case of the sorcerer it's even highly questionable, that they lose their ability to do so.

So, as in 3.0 with the specialization stuff, the rules simply do not cover the necessary parts needed. Relating it to the most similar (or the 3.0 Incantatrix, would work the same way) seems completely reasonable.

You read too much restriction into the rules written. Nothing at all says what happens with the already learned spells. Nothing.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Read the Incantatrix class. Nothing else. It doesn't matter how some Red Wizard in some other book works. It doesn't matter at all. All that matters is what is written under the rules for that class.

...

And this is not the first time that an ability that is similar or even has the same name has worked differently for one class than it does for another. Try checking out the Hide in Plain Sight abilities of the Ranger and the Shadowdancer. Hmmm. They aren't identical now are they? One is supernatural, one is extraodinary. One works when within range of a shadow, the other works in natural environments. And they even have the same name!

...

The Enhanced Specialization of the Red Wizard and the Focused Studies of the Incantatrix are similar, but they don't have the same name and they don't have the same description. And as I've pointed out, you can't just go looking at another class for its rules even if the names of the abilities are identical. Only what is written for that class counts, not what is written for some other class.

Ok. Let's take this as a given.

Now I have my Sorcerer/Incantatrix. I get the rule "Focused Studies". It tells me, I have to choose a prohibited school.

I can't do that.

There is no rule about prohibited schools. Neither in the Incantatrix description, nor in the Sorcerer description. It's not in the glossary either.

How do I proceed?

Ok, I know - I have read the book - that there is a similar rule for the Wizard class. But I cannot use that, as you have pointed out as it is a completely different class.

...And as I've pointed out, you can't just go looking at another class for its rules even if the names of the abilities are identical...

So what now?

Bye
Thanee

 

[James McMurray]

I think its quite obvious that either:

1) The game universe implodes and explodes simultaneously OR
2) The DM makes a ruling and the game continues.

You can be sure that any campaign I run will use option #1.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Ok. Let's take this as a given.

Now I have my Sorcerer/Incantatrix. I get the rule "Focused Studies". It tells me, I have to choose a prohibited school.

I can't do that.

There is no rule about prohibited schools. Neither in the Incantatrix description, nor in the Sorcerer description. It's not in the glossary either.

How do I proceed?

Ok, I know - I have read the book - that there is a similar rule for the Wizard class. But I cannot use that, as you have pointed out as it is a completely different class.

Except that in the Incantatrix's description it says it is in addtion to any prohibited school(s) you have as a specialist Wizard. That is, to me, a pretty clear way of saying that it works just like a prohibited school you would have from being a specialist wizard, just without the benefits of specialization.

[EDIT] Oops posted early.
We are already given a frame of reference. We are told that because of the focused studies, the Incantatrix must choose a "prohibited school." Well, what does that mean? Fortunately, it goes on to say that it is in addition to any prohibted schools you may alredy have from being a specialist. So if we look at the PHB and see what a prohibited school is and what it does, we will find that you cannot cast any spells from that school, even from items. And since nothing in the Focused Studies description says that the prohibited school works differently for the Incantatrix than it does for a specialist Wizard, we have to treat it the same way. The Red Wizard, on the other hand, quite explicitly overrides the normal rules for prohibited schools.

 

[Thanee]

It only says, that the Incantatrix-prohibited school is in addition to any Wizard-prohibited schools. This obviously means, that you cannot choose the same ones again.

It does say nothing about how the Incantatrix-prohibited school works.

You have to relate to the Wizard class description to find out (something, that is not possible, as you claim above ), how it might work, altho it's obviously quite different in this specific case, as the prohibited school is not chosen at first level like Wizard-prohibited schools, where the "problem" with already known spells cannot appear and thus is not covered.

The closest thing is the Red Wizard PrC, not the Wizard class. So it seems completely reasonable to me, to look there instead of making rules up out of nowhere. It's still making rules up that way, mind you, as the relevant class descriptions say absolutely nothing about the question at hand, but it's at least using some precedence, not pure imagination.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Falling Icicle]

It does say nothing about how the Incantatrix-prohibited school works.

You have to relate to the Wizard class description to find out (something, that is not possible, as you claim above ),

It is possible when the prestige class actually refers to the other rule. The Incantatrix never refers to the Red Wizard class. It does refer to specialist Wizards. And when it says a "prohibited school" and refers to specialists, it must be talking about the same thing. And as far as Sorcerers, they are almost identical to Wizards. They have the same schools of magic and (with a couple exceptions) the exact same spell list. There is no reason that having a school prohibited would be in any way different for them.

BTW, what do you think of the fix I proposed earlier?

 

[Thanee]

Rules for wizards have not much meaning for sorcerers, or can I - by that logic - just use other rules that are for wizards as well?

They quite clearly differentiate between the two classes in all aspects of the game.

And while I absolutely agree - despite what I'm saying - that it makes sense to use the prohibited school rules from the wizard, I'm just saying that it makes the same sense to find out what happens with the stuff that is not covered there by similar means.

You say, they didn't write what happens with the spells known... so they cannot use them anymore.
I say, they didn't write what happens with the spells known... so it's undefinied.

Fix? What fix? Must have missed that...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Falling Icicle]

Fix? What fix? Must have missed that...

LOL. Yeah you missed it. I'll post it again.

Both of these classes need fixing. So here is what I recommend Wizards of the Coast change the text for both classes to:

Focused Studies - Upon becoming a [insert class name here], the character further devotes himself to his specialty chool (for Red Wizards) or the study of Metamagic (for Incantatrixes). As a result, he must choose one restricted school. This restricted school is in addition to any prohibited school(s) the character may already have. The character must choose a school that is not already prohibited to him, and, in the case of an Incantatrix, the character may not choose Abjuration as his prohibited school. The character can no longer learn new spells from this restricted school, but he may still cast the spells he knew prior to becoming a [insert class name here], and retains the ability to cast spells of this school from scrolls and other items.