2 Qs: metamagic, incantatrix, and archmage

[Falling Icicle]

Hey, I have no problem with the "prohibited to learn something" part.

I do have a problem with the "forget anything you already have learned" part.

I don't like it either. But, I'd still love to see someone explain how a Sorcerer can suddenly forget a spell he "composed as a musician composes music" and cast dozens and dozens of times and all of a sudden learn a new one in its place.

And there is a precedence in the rules (the Red Wizard PrC), which shows how it has to work (IMHO).

Well, this is a very interesting issue. The Red Wizard and Incantatrix are the only two prestige classes (that I know of) that do anything like this. And they are both very different from each other. One class is meant for specialist Wizards only, the other is meant for any arcane caster. So they don't necessarily "have to work" the exact same way. Maybe they should, but the way it is written right now, they don't (at least IMHO).

And, the 3.5 Red Wizard class is itself a contradictory mess. The part about how they give up extra schools makes it appear that they have to give up two extra schools if they are not a Diviner, while the example that follows says just the opposite. The same is true about their circle magic, where in the rule it says that using it to increase caster level adds to both spell effects and caster level checks, while the example that follows says that increases to caster level checks must be paid for separately. There was a topic on this a while back, and (IMHO) some very sloppy work was done in converting this class. Alot of it was simply cut and pasted from the FRCS without any thought as to the new 3.5 rules.

My point is that I don't think the Red Wizard should be really something we look to for a guide since it is a very screwed up class in 3.5. At least with the Incantatrix they actually went and made some rather extensive changes and rewrote it from the ground up. The Focused Studies is still somewhat confusing, and I too would like to see them be more explicit as to what happens when you suddenly, in the middle of your career, dump a school. But, it's still a big improvement. If you really want a confusing mess just try making a 3.0 Sorcerer/Incantatrix character.

 

[Falling Icicle]

But don't get offended (I don't think you are, tho) by that... it's surely not meant this way.

You're right. It's hard to hate somebody who has such a beautiful pic.

 

[Thanee]

Well, I did make a Sorcerer/Incantatrix before the PGtF.

And yeah, there were some rules issues, that had to be resolved, but nothing problematic.

Anyways, what do you say about my Archmage example (last page)?

Does the Archmage *not* gain caster level, since it's not listed in the ability (unlike the Red Wizard)?

At least with the Incantatrix they actually went and made some rather extensive changes and rewrote it from the ground up.

And forgot to include the part we talk about... which was in the 3.0 rules as well.

They really *should* use more cut & paste at the right positions.

They must think, that it's obvious, that it can only work this way!

But, I'd still love to see someone explain how a Sorcerer can suddenly forget a spell he "composed as a musician composes music" and cast dozens and dozens of times and all of a sudden learn a new one in its place.

Now that's something, where you really cannot find a logical explanation (unless you use it only to upgrade spells to higher versions).

This is more like a rule for the player not for the character.

Bye
Thanee

 

[RigaMortus]

"At 1st level, the incantatrix gives up a school of magic so as to focus more on the remaining schools." .... "This prohibited school is in addition to any others already chosen due to school specialization."
PGtF p.62, emphasis mine.

Yeah, it says the incantrix gives up the school of magic, not the sorcerer. And since he took the spells as a sorcerer, that line of text wouldn't apply. It only applies to the incantrix... JMHO

 

[Falling Icicle]

Well, I did make a Sorcerer/Incantatrix before the PGtF.

And yeah, there were some rules issues, that had to be resolved, but nothing problematic.

Nothing problematic?!

It only made Sorcerers specialists in Abjuration without giving the slightest indication of how a Sorcerer specialist is supposed to work. And a Wizard who was specialized in a school other than Abjuration would effectively become a double specialist. And they didn't explain that either.

Anyways, what do you say about my Archmage example (last page)?

Does the Archmage *not* gain caster level, since it's not listed in the ability (unlike the Red Wizard)?

That is obviously a typo. The developers have confirmed that any time a class gains +1 caster level that it gives all of the benefits of that, including spells per day and an increase in caster level.

And besides, how can you say they don't gain a bonsu to their caster level, when it says "+1 caster level" right on their chart?

And obviously they would have to get caster level increases any time their spells per day increase, otherwise they wouldn't have the minimum caster level to cast new levels of spells they get access to.

And this is quite a different case from what we're talking about. There are dozens and dozens of prestige classes that give +1 caster level progressions. There are only two, count it, two, prestige classes I have ever heard of that make you give up an extra school. The Incantatrix being one, the Red Wizard the other. And we can't just assume that they work the same way, since the Red Wizard says you have to pick new forbidden school(s) using the specialist rules in the PHB. The Incantatrix simply says you give up one extra school.

And forgot to include the part we talk about... which was in the 3.0 rules as well.

They really *should* use more cut & paste at the right positions.

Then why even bother with a revision? Aren't you supposed to actually revise things when you make a revision?

(Unless of course it's part of some evil scheme to make everyone buy more books and fill your pockets in the process).

They must think, that it's obvious, that it can only work this way!

I can't really say what they think. I honestly don't know sometimes.

Maybe the problem is that they don't think when they do things soemtimes.

Now that's something, where you really cannot find a logical explanation (unless you use it only to upgrade spells to higher versions).

This is more like a rule for the player not for the character.

Glad to see you are catching on.

Yeah, it says the incantrix gives up the school of magic, not the sorcerer. And since he took the spells as a sorcerer, that line of text wouldn't apply. It only applies to the incantrix... JMHO

Except that the Incantatrix is the Sorcerer, and continues to progress in spellcasting ability as a Sorcerer.

Don't be a smarta##.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Chill out Icicle-boy. Just because you can't read the writing on the wall doesn't mean you take it out on someone trying to show you it.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Chill out Icicle-boy. Just because you can't read the writing on the wall doesn't mean you take it out on someone trying to show you it.

Excuse me?

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of " ". Or maybe you are just trying to cause trouble. Or maybe you can't see the "writing on the wall" but want to make it appear as though you do by making petty personal attacks against those who do. Or maybe you just didn't have anything useful or meaningful to say, but thought you would opine anyway, to my expense.

In any case, I am not going to counter your remarks with an appropriate response, since it would no doubt get me banned from the forums.

Suffice to say, speak to me in that manner again and I will probably not be willing to exercise such restraint.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Suffice to say, speak to me in that manner again and I will probably not be willing to exercise such restraint.

Bring it iceman.

 

[Thanee]

Nothing problematic?!

It only made Sorcerers specialists in Abjuration without giving the slightest indication of how a Sorcerer specialist is supposed to work. And a Wizard who was specialized in a school other than Abjuration would effectively become a double specialist. And they didn't explain that either.

It was not problematic to decide on how to deal with this.

Of course, the rules omitted this piece of information, but it was no problem to add it in.

That is obviously a typo. The developers have confirmed that any time a class gains +1 caster level that it gives all of the benefits of that, including spells per day and an increase in caster level.

And besides, how can you say they don't gain a bonsu to their caster level, when it says "+1 caster level" right on their chart?

Your book seems to be very different to my book.

And this is quite a different case from what we're talking about.

I don't see it as so different, really. Both are the exact same ability (+1 level of existing class in one case, additional prohibited school in the other).

Why should the same concept work differently for some classes?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Falling Icicle]

It was not problematic to decide on how to deal with this.

Of course, the rules omitted this piece of information, but it was no problem to add it in.

The problem was having to decide how it should work when it should have been explained for us.

I don't see it as so different, really. Both are the exact same ability (+1 level of existing class in one case, additional prohibited school in the other).

Why should the same concept work differently for some classes?

Why do you ask me? I didn't write it. I wish they would have just made it work the same way. If this is something they are goign to start doing with prestige classes, they should make a standard way of handling it. But they didn't. And until they errata it, we can either take it as it is, or house rule it.

Both of these classes need fixing. So here is what I recommend Wizards of the Coast change the text for both classes to:

Focused Studies - Upon becoming a [insert class name here], the character further devotes himself to his specialty chool (for Red Wizards) or the study of Metamagic (for Incantatrixes). As a result, he must choose one restricted school. This restricted school is in addition to any prohibited school(s) the character may already have. The character must choose a school that is not already prohibited to him, and, in the case of an Incantatrix, the character may not choose Abjuration as his prohibited school. The character can no longer learn new spells from this restricted school, but he may still cast the spells he knew prior to becoming a [insert class name here], and retains the ability to cast spells of this school from scrolls and other items.