Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Re: My Opinion
Unless his Ambi and TWF are Ranger virtual feats...
-Hyp.
Unless his Ambi and TWF are Ranger virtual feats...
-Hyp.
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2 Short Swords or 1 Great Sword?
- Thread starter demon_jr
- Start date
SpikeyFreak
First Post
Longsword + Shortsword gives you 1 more point of damage on average.
Not worth it when you can take weapon spec (shortsword) and get +2 damage with both weapons, and weapon focus (shortsword) and get +1 with both weapons, and improved critical (shortsword), and get more crits with both weapons.
I point of damage isn't much for the price of having to take twice as many feats.
When going for damage, greatsword is the way to go. Failing that, a double sword.
--Darth Spikey
Edit: forgot to mention, you have to enchant both ends of a quarterstaff to get +2 on all your attacks when dual wielding it.
Not worth it when you can take weapon spec (shortsword) and get +2 damage with both weapons, and weapon focus (shortsword) and get +1 with both weapons, and improved critical (shortsword), and get more crits with both weapons.
I point of damage isn't much for the price of having to take twice as many feats.
When going for damage, greatsword is the way to go. Failing that, a double sword.
--Darth Spikey
Edit: forgot to mention, you have to enchant both ends of a quarterstaff to get +2 on all your attacks when dual wielding it.
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What most of the powergamers fail to realize is that against some types of foes the 2 shortsword tactic is actually better. Yes in situations where full attack is almost always an option a greatsword does incredible damage but against highly skilled opponents a greatsword can be a liability. Versus a NPC that regularly can attempt disarm, sunder or improved grab attacks the greatsword loses its appeal quite rapidly.
Of course if your guy is heavily armored tank type then go with the heavy weapon, however if you are the dodge, mobility get stuck in type then two weapons makes better style...
Of course if your guy is heavily armored tank type then go with the heavy weapon, however if you are the dodge, mobility get stuck in type then two weapons makes better style...
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
1. It's much easier to disarm a shortsword than a greatsword.
2. If you're a mobility fighter, presumably you're planning on using Spring Attack - where you only get to make a single attack. Again, the shortsword pales in comparison to the greatsword.
-Hyp.
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
Whoa, whoa, whoa...
Yes, two shortswords suck during a Spring Attack. Not denying that. Two shortswords suck during a charge attack. Not denying that. And yes, two shortswords suck if you are far away from the melee and do not have access to Haste.
What SpikeyFreak said.
Sorry bud. You get 1.0 Str on the primary attack on a quarterstaff if you wield it as a double weapon. You only get the 1.5 Str if you are wielding it as a THW (and not TWF).
Granted. A two-bladed sword is better than two shortswords in all instances. (Except when grappled.)
But I disagree that a greatsword does more damage than TWF. You are neglecting a couple of points:
Weapon Specialization
Enhancement bonuses (GMW)
Let's go with 11th level: (The original poster must be at least that to have 2 +2 shortswords and a +3 greatsword.)
Assuming L11 Fighter (we could put in L1 Ranger, since that's how most people would get the TWF/Amb, but I'd like to keep this consistent).
Greatsword: 3 attacks
1 2d6 +1.5Str +en +WS (+11)
2 2d6 +1.5Str +en +WS (+6)
3 2d6 +1.5Str +en +WS (+1)
It is not likely that attack #3 will hit.
TWF: 5 attacks
1 1d6 +Str +en +WS (+9)
2 1d6 +Str +en +WS (+4)
3 1d6 +Str +en +WS (-1)
4 1d6 +.5Str +en +WS (+9)
5 1d6 +.5Str +en +WS (+4)
It is not likely that attack #3 will hit.
Now with GMW, the enhancement bonuses are the same. Also, I'm assuming that both of them have Imp.Critical and keen weapons. (The Greatsword user has more feats and more money to spend on his sword, besides the fact that he probably multiclassed as a barbarian. I'm going to disregard that for the moment. I'm also going to assume that you realize Power Attack is worthless on a full attack.)
So since attack #3 is unlikely to hit, let me take it out of the equation, to get: (Obviously, the #3 for a greatsword is better than for a short sword. I'll add that back in later. I'm just trying to look at most likely scenarios.)
Greatsword: 2 attacks
1 2d6 +1.5Str +en +WS (+11)
2 2d6 +1.5Str +en +WS (+6)
TWF: 4 attacks
1 1d6 +Str +en +WS (+9)
2 1d6 +Str +en +WS (+4)
4 1d6 +.5Str +en +WS (+9)
5 1d6 +.5Str +en +WS (+4)
Assuming that all attacks hit (which is a big assumption, I know), then:
Greatsword = 14 +3Str +2en +4
2SSwords = 14 + 3Str +4en +8
(en = +3 for an 11th level GMW)
Greatsword = 24 +3Str
2SSwords = 34 +3Str
.
.
.
Now, these are not the final numbers. The greatsword user will hit a little more often, tends to have a higher Str (by 4 points or so), an extra special ability on the weapon (due to having only one weapon to enchant) and the 3rd attack will do more damage overall. However, this is offset by the fact that the shortsword user crits almost twice as often (due to more attacks) and thus their WS/enhancement bonuses become even more crucial.
.
.
.
.
In short, I have seen TWF played effectively. (With two rapiers, short swords, bastard swords and a two-bladed sword.) I have also seen THW used properly (keen falchions, scythes, [didn't have merc greatswords], greatswords, glaives, spiked chain).
The only times when I've seen TWF effective, however, is when the character doesn't max out their Dex (or go with Weapon Finesse [bleh!]), and instead maxes out their Str, as any good warrior does.
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Side note:
I think it's funny that Spring Attack/Mobility/Dodge are more important for a THW character than for a lightly armored TWF, since a TWF is trying to get as many full attacks as possible, whereas a THW character can use Power Attack/Spring Attack. Funny, no?
(Besides the fact that I think Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack are worthless feats. I'd much rather have Iron Will, GF and LR. But that's just me.)
Yes, two shortswords suck during a Spring Attack. Not denying that. Two shortswords suck during a charge attack. Not denying that. And yes, two shortswords suck if you are far away from the melee and do not have access to Haste.
What SpikeyFreak said.
Sorry bud. You get 1.0 Str on the primary attack on a quarterstaff if you wield it as a double weapon. You only get the 1.5 Str if you are wielding it as a THW (and not TWF).
Granted. A two-bladed sword is better than two shortswords in all instances. (Except when grappled.)
But I disagree that a greatsword does more damage than TWF. You are neglecting a couple of points:
Weapon Specialization
Enhancement bonuses (GMW)
Let's go with 11th level: (The original poster must be at least that to have 2 +2 shortswords and a +3 greatsword.)
Assuming L11 Fighter (we could put in L1 Ranger, since that's how most people would get the TWF/Amb, but I'd like to keep this consistent).
Greatsword: 3 attacks
1 2d6 +1.5Str +en +WS (+11)
2 2d6 +1.5Str +en +WS (+6)
3 2d6 +1.5Str +en +WS (+1)
It is not likely that attack #3 will hit.
TWF: 5 attacks
1 1d6 +Str +en +WS (+9)
2 1d6 +Str +en +WS (+4)
3 1d6 +Str +en +WS (-1)
4 1d6 +.5Str +en +WS (+9)
5 1d6 +.5Str +en +WS (+4)
It is not likely that attack #3 will hit.
Now with GMW, the enhancement bonuses are the same. Also, I'm assuming that both of them have Imp.Critical and keen weapons. (The Greatsword user has more feats and more money to spend on his sword, besides the fact that he probably multiclassed as a barbarian. I'm going to disregard that for the moment. I'm also going to assume that you realize Power Attack is worthless on a full attack.)
So since attack #3 is unlikely to hit, let me take it out of the equation, to get: (Obviously, the #3 for a greatsword is better than for a short sword. I'll add that back in later. I'm just trying to look at most likely scenarios.)
Greatsword: 2 attacks
1 2d6 +1.5Str +en +WS (+11)
2 2d6 +1.5Str +en +WS (+6)
TWF: 4 attacks
1 1d6 +Str +en +WS (+9)
2 1d6 +Str +en +WS (+4)
4 1d6 +.5Str +en +WS (+9)
5 1d6 +.5Str +en +WS (+4)
Assuming that all attacks hit (which is a big assumption, I know), then:
Greatsword = 14 +3Str +2en +4
2SSwords = 14 + 3Str +4en +8
(en = +3 for an 11th level GMW)
Greatsword = 24 +3Str
2SSwords = 34 +3Str
.
.
.
Now, these are not the final numbers. The greatsword user will hit a little more often, tends to have a higher Str (by 4 points or so), an extra special ability on the weapon (due to having only one weapon to enchant) and the 3rd attack will do more damage overall. However, this is offset by the fact that the shortsword user crits almost twice as often (due to more attacks) and thus their WS/enhancement bonuses become even more crucial.
.
.
.
.
In short, I have seen TWF played effectively. (With two rapiers, short swords, bastard swords and a two-bladed sword.) I have also seen THW used properly (keen falchions, scythes, [didn't have merc greatswords], greatswords, glaives, spiked chain).
The only times when I've seen TWF effective, however, is when the character doesn't max out their Dex (or go with Weapon Finesse [bleh!]), and instead maxes out their Str, as any good warrior does.
.
.
.
Side note:
I think it's funny that Spring Attack/Mobility/Dodge are more important for a THW character than for a lightly armored TWF, since a TWF is trying to get as many full attacks as possible, whereas a THW character can use Power Attack/Spring Attack. Funny, no?
(Besides the fact that I think Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack are worthless feats. I'd much rather have Iron Will, GF and LR. But that's just me.)
For those who are curious, here is a bit of background, not relating to game mechanics.
Role-playing-wise here is what I was planning to do. It may sound cheesy, but this is an RPG after all:
My character's love interest has been killed. Her body is being kept within the city of Silverymoon ( this is an FR campaign). All attempts to ressurect her have failed. Although her body is alive, her soul has not returned. As a background story, my character has been searching for a way to recover her soul.
Now, this is where the twin short swords come in. After acquiring the twin short swords, I am thinking it might be a nice gesture to leave my "favorite" greatsword at the side of my character's "beloved".
However, one of the reasons for asking the original question was a meta-gaming one; if I would still be an effective meeler for our party wielding different weapons in a different style.
Thanks for all the input so far.
Role-playing-wise here is what I was planning to do. It may sound cheesy, but this is an RPG after all:
My character's love interest has been killed. Her body is being kept within the city of Silverymoon ( this is an FR campaign). All attempts to ressurect her have failed. Although her body is alive, her soul has not returned. As a background story, my character has been searching for a way to recover her soul.
Now, this is where the twin short swords come in. After acquiring the twin short swords, I am thinking it might be a nice gesture to leave my "favorite" greatsword at the side of my character's "beloved".
However, one of the reasons for asking the original question was a meta-gaming one; if I would still be an effective meeler for our party wielding different weapons in a different style.
Thanks for all the input so far.
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
demon_jr----
That is not cheesy, that is really good. If I were your DM, I would so give you kudos for that. Any PC who willing sacrifices gps for a plot device deserves an "I Love the DM" badge.
That is not cheesy, that is really good. If I were your DM, I would so give you kudos for that. Any PC who willing sacrifices gps for a plot device deserves an "I Love the DM" badge.
SpikeyFreak
First Post
ConcreteBuddha,
Seriously, if you have Excel installed, check out the link in my sig, get my damage calculation sheet.
I spent probably 6 months working on it non stop, I've messed with the numbers A LOT.
With the same feats (expect TWF and Ambi) and barring the tempest PrC and sneak attack damage, a greatsword worth x gold does more damage than 2 shortswords worth x gold total against a foe with a decent (and by decent I mean not pitiful) AC.
--Drizzt Spikey
Seriously, if you have Excel installed, check out the link in my sig, get my damage calculation sheet.
I spent probably 6 months working on it non stop, I've messed with the numbers A LOT.
With the same feats (expect TWF and Ambi) and barring the tempest PrC and sneak attack damage, a greatsword worth x gold does more damage than 2 shortswords worth x gold total against a foe with a decent (and by decent I mean not pitiful) AC.
--Drizzt Spikey
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I've never run into theis question seriously IMC. Barbarians use two-handed weapons, rangers use two short swords (not a longsword!), and fighters usually use a shield.
The PCs can't count on an animated shield, so both options aren't very attractive.
The PCs can't count on an animated shield, so both options aren't very attractive.
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
SpikeyFreak said:
No, I don't have Excel, or else I'd check out your calculator.
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Also, I am looking at this from personal XP, as well as the numbers. I've found that TWF is just as good as THW (barring twinked out PrCs).
This is also assuming that a PC has at least 4 levels of fighter to get the WS. (Or a bunch of FEs.)
