2 weapon fighting vs. Multiattack

[lightful]

A Vrock has 10 outsider Hit Dice and 5 natural attacks (bite, 2 claws and 2 talons). If you give him 1 fighter level, take the 2-weapon fighting feat and arm him with a pair of daggers does he get 3 dagger attacks with one hand (BAB 11), 1 with the other and the bite and 2 talons as well. It seems like a cheap way to get 2 more attacks for the price of one level ?

Or does the 2-weapon fighting style somehow trump the natural multiattack style ?

 

[gtJormungand]

A Vrock has 10 outsider Hit Dice and 5 natural attacks (bite, 2 claws and 2 talons). If you give him 1 fighter level, take the 2-weapon fighting feat and arm him with a pair of daggers does he get 3 dagger attacks with one hand (BAB 11), 1 with the other and the bite and 2 talons as well. It seems like a cheap way to get 2 more attacks for the price of one level ?

Or does the 2-weapon fighting style somehow trump the natural multiattack style ?

If you consider that a valid use of a level, then it does indeed get you more attacks, but why daggers?

2-weapon fighting goes right along with the multiattack style. Basically, it means that he'll have his attacks at dagger A +14/+9/+4, dagger B +14, bite +11, talon +11. However, he only has half his strength bonus to the second dagger's damage, and he can't power attack with either of those.

 

[lightful]

I used daggers just as an example. Actually he'll be using red steel manglers (homebrew + AE) and his feats we'll be reshuffled quite a bit. With a few more levels he should be a worth Abyssal champion at CR 12 !

Thanks !

 

[apesamongus]

It seems like a cheap way to get 2 more attacks for the price of one level ?

One level isn't a cheap anything, and he ends up taking -2 on all those attacks. Plus of the two additional he gets, 1 would be at -7 and 1 at -12. A better choice would be no twf and instead just one dagger - no -2s on attacks, and you still get 2 extras at -5 and -10. That looks like a much better deal, although, that would move your remaing claw to being a secondard attack (-2 and 1/2 strength)

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It's my understanding that you do not get to mix attacks due to BAB with a natural attack routine. So the Vrock either gets its natural attack routine (bite/claw/claw/talon/talon) or it gets attacks due to BAB if it uses a manufactured weapon. For a standard Vrock, that'd be 2 attacks at +10/+5 (plus strength).

You don't get to simply replace one of the Vrock's claw attacks with the entire series of BAB attacks.

I may be mistaken about this, but this has been my understanding of it. So giving the Vrock TWF would allow it to attack at +8/+3, +8. Three attacks, instead of its usual five natural attacks.

 

[lightful]

And that Lord Pendragon is my question precisely. Can anyone quote a definitive ruling or is this just one of the ever growing list of loopholes in a supposedly tight ruleset?

 

[apesamongus]

You don't need a ruling when it's plainly stated in the rules.

SRD-
Manufactured Weapons: Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

I would have sworn that creatures with natural attacks gave up all but one of them (the first one) when they used a manufactured weapon. Let me see if I can find that. . .

EDIT: Okay, sorry. I don't know where I saw or didn't see this. I'll keep my eyes open on the issue.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I don't think 2wf adds much to the Vrocks combat skill, 2handed in conjunction with it's great strength otoh...

 

[lightful]

In general I agree, but I'm looking to do something special with this guy and I don't want my players squaking that I blatantly ignored the rules - they'll have plenty to squak over when they see him in action

And even if he did go 2 handed, the same question would apply, would he get just the three iterative weapon attacks or the three remaining natural ones as well (2 talons and a bite) ?