D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

[Krachek]

This Thread is going nowhere because it try to present a new game. DnD as Duel and Despair. A new PvP game to oppose players in fantasy duels. Each side is yelling at each others because the rules are not build for duels without a referee. The OP present a build of sorcerer that we don’t know if it is to be played as a PC, a Monster, or in a PvP mode.
The PvP mode is not even an option in the game, so I assume it must be one of the two others. maybe are host may state in which mode Pc or Monster he want us to analyze its Sorcerer.

 

[Earth2Carnifex]

This Thread is going nowhere because it try to present a new game. DnD as Duel and Despair. A new PvP game to oppose players in fantasy duels. Each side is yelling at each others because the rules are not build for duels without a referee. The OP present a build of sorcerer that we don’t know if it is to be played as a PC, a Monster, or in a PvP mode.
The PvP mode is not even an option in the game, so I assume it must be one of the two others. maybe are host may state in which mode Pc or Monster he want us to analyze its Sorcerer.

I agree, I have no idea what this game is, but it has nothing to do with Dungeons & Dragons, I am just here for the Tales of Foggy Bottom stories.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

This Thread is going nowhere because it try to present a new game. DnD as Duel and Despair. A new PvP game to oppose players in fantasy duels. Each side is yelling at each others because the rules are not build for duels without a referee. The OP present a build of sorcerer that we don’t know if it is to be played as a PC, a Monster, or in a PvP mode.
The PvP mode is not even an option in the game, so I assume it must be one of the two others. maybe are host may state in which mode Pc or Monster he want us to analyze its Sorcerer.

Based on OP's posts elsewhere I assumed it was going to be a bunch of pointless Sorcerer supremacist nonsense when I first showed up. But I had been imagining that it was an exercise that was about how various D&D player character builds would fare against each other.

It seems to me now to actually be an exercise in how a Sorcerer player could cheese every encounter if the DM let them. And for some reason rather than monsters for these encounters he and the DM get other players to join for one session so that the Sorcerer can fight their characters with everything rigged in his favor. The Sorcerer player and DM then laugh together at how easily they dispatch the new player's character. Evidently without even giving them an initiative roll, because that's fun somehow.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The funniest thing is. I see nothing and I roll initiative.

No matter what you say, you will never roll initiative with something you cannot detect.

Yes. You see nothing and roll initiative. The thought bubble over your head reads..

"It's quiet....too quiet"

And you draw your weapon, prepare a spell etc.

See how that makes both perfect narrative and mechanical sense. It's almost like your character is always..alert.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

If the Sorcerer finished to Subtle Private Sanctum (Because It's obvious visual effect) and the Simulacrum casts Subtle Spell Dispel.
For me It's obviously a iniative roll.
But It's a death sentese for Wizards.



But Subtle Polymorph / Subtle Dispel don't have visible effects. No initiative. Poor Chicken Wizards.

It has been largely pointed that initiative is rolled as soon as combat start (=hostile actions are taken), irrespective of whether the participants are aware of each other. As soon as we roll initiative, we're into combat and combat rules applies. If we are not in combat, the Wizard can teleport whenever he wants, because there is no order of action outside of combat. You dispel something outside of combat? OK, since we are not in a combat, the wizard teleport at the same time. Initiative is the basis of the precise action-counting that happens in combat, where it matters because there is hostility, rather than the usual vague, DM-determined, tracking of the time that happens outside of combat, where the DM narrates time at his leisure (detailed or glossed over as "Three day later, you arrive in Candlekeep...") If there is no Initiative, we are not in combat, then there is nothing stopping the Wizard to act at the same time. "Seeing his Contingency failing outside combat, he teleported away out of an abundance of caution" You can't claim to have the ability to react before he leaves, unless you appeal to the DM.

Besides, in an earlier build, you claimed to be able to react when being scryed upon when you were out of spell slots to Mind Blank, which causes an invisible locator to appear, by casting a See Invisibility spell. Nobody contested that. If we go by your rules instead of the D&D rules, you shouldn't have been able to do that and you should instead have claimed that the sorcerer blissfully ignores something his amiss. You didn't at the time... Did you change the rules?

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

INTERMISSION: FROM A PARALLEL WORLD WHERE INITIATIVE AND STEALTH WORK AS @Hohige PLEADS HIS DM TO RULE IN HIS FAVOUR
(In Which the Flaw of the Stone Chicken Strategy, while Nice to Prevent any Clone or Resurrection Attempt, and Visually Fun, Is Exposed).

Unknown wizard (UW): "most of my friends have been disappearing. I am truely wondering what's happening... Let's find out!"
Wizards casts Gate, naming their friend."

When you cast this spell, you can speak the name of a specific creature (a pseudonym, title, or nickname doesn’t work). If that creature is on a plane other than the one you are on, the portal opens in the named creature’s immediate vicinity and draws the creature through it to the nearest unoccupied space on your side of the portal.

A stone chicken appears. the UW is perplexed and dismiss his gate immediately, then casts Dispel Magic on the stone chicken, returning the Wizard to his previous form.
UW: "my friend, what happened?"
Former Chicken (FC): "I don't know, I was in my study, then suddenly a Private Sanctum popped and I was transformed into a chicken, then was unaware of my surrounding until you released me".
UW: "OK... Who did that to you?"
FC: "I don't know."
UW: "OK, let's find out after a long rest."

UW proceeds to cast Scrying repeatedly at the Stealthy Wizard. It can take some time.

Possibility 1 : at some point, the Sorcerer drops Mind Blank and is scryed upon successfully. Totally unaware of the fact the spell is being cast on him, he has no possibility to react as initiative was never rolled.

Method A : the Old-School Assassin

Through Scrying, the UW observes the Sorcerer, then casts Greater Invisibility on his Simulacrum of a 20th level Alert Assassin (using his Concentration)., then teleporting him to the scryed location. The assassin is aware of the location of the quarry but can't see him. The quarry has no way to know someone teleported nearby, lacking any visual cue. The Assassin then proceeds to move toward the last known position of the quarry, still being hidden, without any possibility for the quarry to react to his presence. Once within 10 ft, the Assasin's blindsense defeats hiding, and he decides to attack, giving away his location. Since he's attacking a surprised target, he can use his assassinate feature to make a critical strike, so his damage roll will double, to 2d6 (shortsword)+14d6 (save CON for half due to wyvern poison) + 20d6 (sneak attack) for a total of 36d6 (average, if the save against poison is made of 101 damage), doubled if a CON 19 save isn't made against the Death Strike Feature. The, the Assassin uses his bonus action to hide (Cunning Action feature). On the next round, having +5 DEX & being Alert & Lucky, odds he'll beat the initiative roll of +1 of the Sorcerer is great (actually, 94%), attacking for an additional 1d6+10d6+7d6(CON save for half), finishing the Sorcerer, who never add the opporunity to act. Plus, the Assassin is invisible and hidden after his attack (thanks to his bonus action to hide) so unless the Sorcerer spends actions to cast See Invisibility or Skill Empowerment (Search) then a Search action, he'll be unable to perceive the Assassin.... who will continue the pummelling.

This Sim-dropping is repeated each day until it works, should it fail. That was easy!


Method B : The Wily Wizard

The UW casts Greater Invisibility on his Simulacrum of himself, who proceeds to cast Detect Thoughts. The UW then teleports the Simulacrum to the area he scried upon. The Simulacrum is aware of the presence of creature through Detect Thoughts, and begins prying at his mind. Since there is no visual cue, the Sorcerer still can't roll Initiative. The Simulacrum then yells "WHAT IS YOUR NAME?" while probing. If the Lazy One fails his DC19 WIS save, this information will be acquired and the Simulacrum will teleport away to the UW. If he succeeds, the Simulacrum will Teleport away anyway. The quarry will know his thoughts are being probed, but lacking any visual clue will not be able to roll initiative. The same operation will be repeated daily until it works, and then Gating the Sorcerer to face a Simulacrum'd Assassin daily will be a triviality. This solution allows the UW to eat chips while he watches the Sorc being assassinated, which has added entertainment value.


Possibility 2: the Sorcerer is hiding on his demiplane. Scrying can't locate him there. Then, when the Sorcerer's goes back to the Prime, he's under mind blank and can't be targeted by Divination spells. ==> After a few days, the UW deems his strategy uneffective, but deducts that since the Sorcerer must be casting daily Mind Blank (8th level), Demiplane (8th level), which is impossible and therefore must be cast using a 9th level slot, and Planeshift (to get back to the prime), he has no fine control on where he appears back and can't cast more than one single 7th level spell when encountered. Which in itself is a limitation of the build we didn't know (and in fact, while the Wizard doesn't knows it, it's only 6th level spells that are available since the 7th level will be taken by an Extended Aid upcast according to the build). And we're back to the Lazy One build who never can do anything out of fear of being discovered, but this strategy was denied by the OP earlier in the thread, when he said that his extended security measures only applied when he prepared for a strike against a Wizard-to-be-turned-stone-chicken.

So, since the dropping of Mind Blank ends in unescapable death at the hands of an Assassin, how are you keeping Mind Blank on both you, your Simulacrum and the DMM 24 hours a day?

 

[Hohige]

INTERMISSION: FROM A PARALLEL WORLD WHERE INITIATIVE AND STEALTH WORK AS @Hohige PLEADS HIS DM TO RULE IN HIS FAVOUR
(In Which the Flaw of the Stone Chicken Strategy, while Nice to Prevent any Clone or Resurrection Attempt, and Visually Fun, Is Exposed).

Unknown wizard (UW): "most of my friends have been disappearing. I am truely wondering what's happening... Let's find out!"
Wizards casts Gate, naming their friend."

A stone chicken appears. the UW is perplexed and dismiss his gate immediately, then casts Dispel Magic on the stone chicken, returning the Wizard to his previous form.
UW: "my friend, what happened?"
Former Chicken (FC): "I don't know, I was in my study, then suddenly a Private Sanctum popped and I was transformed into a chicken, then was unaware of my surrounding until you released me".
UW: "OK... Who did that to you?"
FC: "I don't know."
UW: "OK, let's find out after a long rest."

UW proceeds to cast Scrying repeatedly at the Stealthy Wizard. It can take some time.

Possibility 1 : at some point, the Sorcerer drops Mind Blank and is scryed upon successfully. Totally unaware of the fact the spell is being cast on him, he has no possibility to react as initiative was never rolled.

Method A : the Old-School Assassin

Through Scrying, the UW observes the Sorcerer, then casts Greater Invisibility on his Simulacrum of a 20th level Alert Assassin (using his Concentration)., then teleporting him to the scryed location. The assassin is aware of the location of the quarry but can't see him. The quarry has no way to know someone teleported nearby, lacking any visual cue. The Assassin then proceeds to move toward the last known position of the quarry, still being hidden, without any possibility for the quarry to react to his presence. Once within 10 ft, the Assasin's blindsense defeats hiding, and he decides to attack, giving away his location. Since he's attacking a surprised target, he can use his assassinate feature to make a critical strike, so his damage roll will double, to 2d6 (shortsword)+14d6 (save CON for half due to wyvern poison) + 20d6 (sneak attack) for a total of 36d6 (average, if the save against poison is made of 101 damage), doubled if a CON 19 save isn't made against the Death Strike Feature. On the next round, having +5 DEX & being Alert & Lucky, odds he'll beat the initiative roll of +1 of the Sorcerer is great (actually, 94%), attacking for an additional 1d6+10d6+14d6(CON save for half), finishing the Sorcerer, who never add the opporunity to act.

This Sim-dropping is repeated each day until it works, should it fail. That was easy!


Method B : The Wily Wizard

The UW casts Greater Invisibility on his Simulacrum of himself, who proceeds to cast Detect Thoughts. The UW then teleports the Simulacrum to the area he scried upon. The Simulacrum is aware of the presence of creature through Detect Thoughts, and begins prying at his mind. Since there is no visual cue, the Sorcerer still can't roll Initiative. The Simulacrum then yells "WHAT IS YOUR NAME?" while probing. If the Lazy One fails his DC19 WIS save, this information will be acquired and the Simulacrum will teleport away to the UW. If he succeeds, the Simulacrum will Teleport away anyway. The same operation will be repeated daily until it works, and then Gating the Sorcerer to face a Simulacrum'd Assassin daily will be a triviality. This solution allows the UW to eat chips while he watches the Sorc being assassinated, which has added entertainment value.


Possibility 2: the Sorcerer is hiding on his demiplane. Scrying can't locate him there. Then, when the Sorcerer's goes back to the Prime, he's under mind blank and can't be targeted by Divination spells. ==> After a few days, the UW deems his strategy uneffective, but deducts that since the Sorcerer must be casting daily Mind Blank (8th level), Demiplane (8th level), which is impossible and therefore must be cast using a 9th level slot, and Planeshift (to get back to the prime), he has no fine control on where he appears back and can't cast more than one single 7th level spell when encountered. Which in itself is a limitation of the build we didn't know (and in fact, while the Wizard doesn't knows it, it's only 6th level spells that are available since the 7th level will be taken by an Extended Aid upcast according to the build). And we're back to the Lazy One build who never can do anything out of fear of being discovered, but this strategy was denied by the OP earlier in the thread, when he said that his extended security measures only applied when he prepared for a strike against a Wizard-to-be-turned-stone-chicken.

So, since the dropping of Mind Blank ends in unescapable death at the hands of an Assassin, how are you keeping Mind Blank on both you, your Simulacrum and the DMM 24 hours a day?

"(In Which the Flaw of the Stone Chicken Strategy, while Nice to Prevent any Clone or Resurrection Attempt, and Visually Fun, Is Exposed)."

"Unknown wizard (UW): "most of my friends have been disappearing. I am truely wondering what's happening... Let's find out!"
Wizards casts Gate, naming their friend."


Unfortunately, His plan failed to save the Stone Wizards failed. Forbbidance blocks Gate, Private Sanctum blocks Planar Travel.
"Gate Spell"
Deities and other planar rulers can prevent Portals created by this spell from opening in their presence or anywhere within their domains.
The Bastion rules his own Demiplane.

His entire plan failed here and the Stone Chicken Wizard remains as a decoration.


"UW proceeds to cast Scrying repeatedly at the Stealthy Wizard. It can take some time.

Possibility 1 : at some point, the Sorcerer drops Mind Blank and is scryed upon successfully. Totally unaware of the fact the spell is being cast on him, he has no possibility to react as initiative was never rolled."

It also failed, who are you Mind Blank or Nondetection prevent your scrying, but who you are trying Scry, you don't know. And inside your home, divination doesn't work there.
You will never hit him with Divination, he will always be protected by Mind Blank or Nondetection. Bastion is undetectable.

Basically, all Wizards that have become Stone Chickens will be doomed, forever.

 

[Krachek]

I see some point to state before continuing debate In this Thread.

DnD is not build as a PvP game. Collaboration is at the heart of DnD as we can read in the preface of the PHB. Assuming that DnD is design, balance and tested to play PvP is an error.

DnD is not a sim game. There is not tools to manage effects of spells, class feature or other players capacities on a large scale. High level Npc or faction interaction, Management of kingdom or empire, inter planar warfare, the best a DM can do is second guess players ideas and roll some dice.

DnD is also an heroic game. Mysteries are meant to be reveal, puzzles to be solved, challenges overcome and monsters to be defeated. A Pc with poor rolled stat and flavorful building choice is most likely to make its way from level 1 to level 20. Optimization is not mandatory to play or survive in DnD.

Looking now at Sorcerer vs the world, I can make some comments,

It´s a great idea to allow a solo players to overcome the world. High level caster are well suited for the job.

On the other side, an hidden leader of the world is also a great final Boss for a long term campaign. It gives plenty of hook to solve a mystery, have a perpetual hidden threat, organize resistance, find powerful allies.

 

[Hohige]

Looking now at Sorcerer vs the world, I can make some comments,

It´s a great idea to allow a solo players to overcome the world. High level caster are well suited for the job.

On the other side, an hidden leader of the world is also a great final Boss for a long term campaign. It gives plenty of hook to solve a mystery, have a perpetual hidden threat, organize resistance, find powerful allies.

To play with this single classed character, without magic items, without infinite loop, fully playable.
Just be a supremacist Sorcerer and think that sorcerers are creatures of pure blood and true heirs of magic. Wizards are just usurpers and he wants to eliminate all schools of magic.

It is interesting for a high level game.

As a final boss, the group will need powerful allies and will not be able to walk freely, with a hidden threat.

 

[Hohige]

Stone Chicken trick is more powerful than you think.
With that he has access to all the spells in the game.


Bastion has several petrified creatures forever, like stock.

Bastion can use Twin Simulacrum to duplicate itself and the petrified creature's simulacrum. Having a powerful arsenal of spells and resources avaiable.

The Bastion is getting more and more powerful.
It can also Cast Extended Dominate Person for 16 hours of manipulation.

This means that the Sorcerer can force imprisoned Wizards to cast Wish, forcing them to lose their precious Wish, forever, and giving Sorcerer even more power.

He can also make the Wizard, memorize only useless low level spells and destroying his spellbook. Force him to cast Imprisonment against himself.
A sad end for the Mighy Wizard.


This is really a final evil boss.
Now things are getting more and more intense.