2E vs 3E: 8 Years Later. A new perspective?

[Arauthator]

Hey, your friendly neighborhood admin here. Welcome to the site! But just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're calling you a liar. It means they think you're wrong. There's a big difference. Please don't take offense and assume the worst when that isn't what's intended.

And in this case, PapersAndPaychecks is right; Gary was forced out of the company after having his office locked. He's here on the site, so you can certainly confirm this if you like.

My mistake was in how I worded it.

He "designed" those game systems because RPG's have become rule intense.
If you go back and look at my original post though.......I said he left DnD, not TSR.

"Leaving TSR because of"

.......was a bad choice of words on someone else's part.

My apologies.......I didn't mean to go start a whole new "Cult of the Dragon".......upon which was founded by mis-interpretation. I'm the Mage though, not Sammaster in this case.

 

[Spell]

Have you seen GURPS Dungeon Fantasy: Adventurers?

i've heard about it, but i would like to know how much is this directly related to (A)D&D (as opposed to just be a parody of sorts) before buying it.

 

[Spell]

Ah, now that your argument has been undermined by actual facts, you resort to the "well, the 2e rules were "chatty" and "fluffy"? I see what you are standing on there, and it is pretty sandy. At this point, it is obvious that you are just grasping for straws and don't have anything left to say that makes any sense.



All of the skills you mention here are included in 3e. Survival, Profession: Farmer, and Diplomacy or Knowlege: Nobility and Royalty cover all of those things.



Your "point" is nonsense, because it doesn't actually match the facts on hand.

ok, you win. i am david cook, i wrote 2e and i can't stand 3e, for no other reason that is so much better than anything ever written before or after.

feel better now?

 

[billd91]

Computer software's a bit different, though.

Stopping the 2e stuff when 3e came out is more like a writer ceasing to sell his last book because he wants his customers to buy his latest one. Why not use all your IP to make money?

It's not as different as you think. The new edition of a game is like the new version of software. It's targeted at the same intellectual space... the current version of the game designers'/publishers' intellectual property. A sequel to another work of fiction occupies a distinctly different intellectual space and is not a replacement for the earlier one. Thus, the IP owner is usually more content to allow the two to exist side by side.

In the world of fiction, a better comparison is an earlier edition of a work being replaced by a later one, perhaps one that has certain corrections made to it or a reworked passage or two. In more extreme form, the original Star Wars trilogy fits in this mold, with the final version replacing the edits of earlier versions released on the screen or on video. In both cases, the owner of the intellectual property wants the final form (and only the final form) available to the masses since it's more in line with his vision of what the product should be, though of course, it's still possible that people may favor an earlier edition for their own idiosyncratic reasons.

From the stand point of the economics of the situation, two related works may compete a little, but two editions of the same work will compete a lot. Attention devoted to the earlier edition will detract attention from the latter, potentially preventing it from getting revenue generating reprints.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

It's not as different as you think. The new edition of a game is like the new version of software. It's targeted at the same intellectual space... the current version of the game designers'/publishers' intellectual property. A sequel to another work of fiction occupies a distinctly different intellectual space and is not a replacement for the earlier one. Thus, the IP owner is usually more content to allow the two to exist side by side.

In the world of fiction, a better comparison is an earlier edition of a work being replaced by a later one, perhaps one that has certain corrections made to it or a reworked passage or two. In more extreme form, the original Star Wars trilogy fits in this mold, with the final version replacing the edits of earlier versions released on the screen or on video. In both cases, the owner of the intellectual property wants the final form (and only the final form) available to the masses since it's more in line with his vision of what the product should be, though of course, it's still possible that people may favor an earlier edition for their own idiosyncratic reasons.

From the stand point of the economics of the situation, two related works may compete a little, but two editions of the same work will compete a lot. Attention devoted to the earlier edition will detract attention from the latter, potentially preventing it from getting revenue generating reprints.

I think this argument assumes a degree of similarity between products called "D&D" that does not, in fact, exist.

The differences between Star Wars original and the edited version are largely cosmetic--equivalent to the differences between 1e and 2e, imo. Even those who like 3e, or feel it was an improvement, usually admit it changed almost everything.

 

[Arauthator]

Forgive me people for not partaking in this conversation. For one, this thread has took a left turn, WAY left. The other, I've argued over GURPS so many times in my life, I'm surprised my skin isn't permanently blue.

I loved it when it first came out.

 

[billd91]

I think this argument assumes a degree of similarity between products called "D&D" that does not, in fact, exist.

The differences between Star Wars original and the edited version are largely cosmetic--equivalent to the differences between 1e and 2e, imo. Even those who like 3e, or feel it was an improvement, usually admit it changed almost everything.

The necessary similarity is the intent of the producer. One version is intended to replace the other. Operating systems may look very different but one version is meant to replace the other in sales and support. The same holds true for editions of RPG rules. The actual degree of change between editions is irrelevant to the intentions of the developers and publishers. Radically different versions may make it prudent to offer some overlapping support for a while as the users get aclimated to the version, but eventually that multi-version support will go away as an unnecessary expense.

 

[Arauthator]

The necessary similarity is the intent of the producer. One version is intended to replace the other. Operating systems may look very different but one version is meant to replace the other in sales and support. The same holds true for editions of RPG rules. The actual degree of change between editions is irrelevant to the intentions of the developers and publishers. Radically different versions may make it prudent to offer some overlapping support for a while as the users get acclimated to the version, but eventually that multi-version support will go away as an unnecessary expense.

Ok. I got to put some input on this theory. Let me sit back in the couch and put my laptop on my wittle piwow so's I can stretch out.


I got some insight on this because my profession is that of a Technical Writer. I'm a Technical Publications Specialist, and I can tell, if WE took on that attitude, the people that use our manuals would be totally lost. I happen to write manuals for Aircraft, so imagine if I were to write those manuals from the eyes of what I want them to see, or make them see things MY way. We would have aircraft falling out of the sky, which is EXACTLY what WoTC has done. It shows in the sales. You have to write manuals while trying to see it through the end users eyes, since ultimately, they are the one going to look at it everyday long after you are already looking at your next project.

* (I'm thinking GenCon should be mandatory for this reason.)

I think it's quite arrogant to suppress the ideals of a publisher or developer onto the end user, not just with RPG's, but ANYTHING where people are going to be using your manuals. Boeing didn't drop the Manuals for B727's just because they were old aircraft. No, people still use them aircraft and in this particular case, the FAA requires support for those manuals as long as the aircraft is being used. Well guess what, people are still using older versions of rules in RPG's and in my opinion, it's the downfall of game companies to not keep support up.

Now I realize that you have to make a profit in this business and the business of Aircraft Manuals relies on the fact that the Aircraft stay around a lot longer than the people who play RPG's, but never-the-less, there is still a small market out there for them. No, you don't want to boost that support past your flagship product by any means, but if you can show the world you are willing to pull Dungeon Magazine and Dragon Magazine off the shelves to bring to your website, oh yes, you can definitely pull support for older rules. Maybe release a module or magic item compendium every 3 months, or something to that effect. While your flagship product gets something new every month.

I would love to talk to the guys from Steve Jackson Games, particularly Sean Punch, and see what went wrong when they tried this method, apparently more than once. I can tell you from all of my experience in this world, just because one person failed, doesn't mean everybody will. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Just make sure you don't make the same type of mistakes twice.

Somebody on here suggested labeling a rules system "Vintage DnD". I think that is an excellent idea. Furthermore, you are living in a time right now where movie producers are bringing back older movies, I.E. Rambo, Video Games companies bring back older games, I.E. Turok is scheduled to make a come back, and ID Software..DOOM 3, did fairly well on revamping it's flagship game. If you were going to implement this idea of supporting older rules, NOW is the time to act on it while the consumer is already used to this idea! Derrr! Doesn't WoTC or Hasbro PAY people to have this kind of vision? This is something that should have been done at the time of putting the magazines on the website, or at the time of announcing fourth edition, however it's not too late. Actually, releasing that information in the first quarter of 2009 would be excellent timing as well, just a few short months after the last rule book is scheduled to be released. Even the Car Manufacturers are doing well at this strategy.

On a side note, you guys have any idea how hard it is to find Cry Havoc rule books? My first copy got damaged a few weeks back, and it took me a week to find somebody that could ship it within 10 days. Sheesh!

Don't even get me started on the idea of having a fourth edition when Chainmail didn't even make it to the shelves.

But back to my point. I know this is a Monday Morning Armchair Quarterback thing to say, so forgive me, but if it were me in on the decisions over there, I would make a master copy of ALL the DnD rules ever created into a book that can be used as a PDF, and let the end user download updates upon a description of those updates from the website. I would also make sure it had a very good description of the changes and charge for that update. Maybe fourth edition is moving toward this already, but it should include the older stuff if it is.

 

[Storm Raven]

Forgive me people for not partaking in this conversation. For one, this thread has took a left turn, WAY left. The other, I've argued over GURPS so many times in my life, I'm surprised my skin isn't permanently blue.

I loved it when it first came out.

One side note about GURPS unrelated to your comment.

In both 2e and 3e combat is covered in the PHB in about 27 pages.

In GURPS, the chapter on basic combat is six pages long. The supposeduly incredibly complicated advanced combat chapter is 23 pages long. The GURPS combat system covers everything from stone knives to ultra-tech fusion guns, and everything in between. Also sandwiched in those pages are rules for mass combat and unusual "dirty tricks" type tactics.

Yet people simply refuse to believe that GURPS is simpler than D&D, usually because they have "been told" or have "heard" that GURPS is an incredibly complicated system. Once you sit down and read it though, it becomes pretty clear how easy it really is.

 

[prosfilaes]

Well, for example, ST-1 Up the Garden Path, or the Dragon Magazine pdf compilation. (I have both; I'm planning to sell them when the price reaches an arm, a leg and your first born child. ST-1 is nearly there already!)

According to one site, there's probably less than 50 copies existing of ST1, and certainly no more than 600 copies ever printed. It's a collector's item, not a module that people buy to run. The Dragon Magazine PDFs are impossible to reprint as is; they had to settle some problems with KoDT people since they explicitly didn't have the rights to reproduce some of the cartoons they did, and I believe under current law, they'd have to negotiate with almost every person who ever wrote an article for Dragon for rights to reprint it.

I think that's a false dichotomy; most collectors are players. Albeit sometimes commercial-minded ones.

They may be players, but they will buy things with their collector hat on they would never do with their player hat on.

For one example, the person who paid $2500 for ST1 bought it to complete a collection. He did not buy it to play it, and there's no way to tell whether he would have bought it to play at any price. For another example, GURPS Bili the Axe: Up Harzburk now sells for $37. Do you really think people are paying $37 for a solo adventure that was recalled? I may not have paid that much, but I
know I didn't buy it to play with.

And again, this is meaningless. Sean Punch, who has reprinted books for Steve Jackson Games because of what they were selling used, has said that's a mistake; that a book is selling for high prices on EBay doesn't mean that it will sell well if reprinted. Unless we have someone else who worked for a gaming company in such a position saying something else, that's as informed a source as we're going to get.

I don't think they'd know, not having sold the books in print...

They're the ones who have the numbers on how much the PDFs are selling, and how much it would cost to PoD these books. At a certain point, backseat driving is just annoying; you just don't know as much as they do.

As I've said, this makes as much sense as withdrawing The Hobbit from the bookshelves so as to sell more copies of Lord of the Rings.

Yes, you've said that. However, I think having multiple Player Handbooks for sale is more like having multiple editions of the Lord of Rings, except that the reader not only has to have an edition of the Hobbit that matches his edition of the Lord of the Rings, to get full use out of the books, he also has to have the same editions of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings as his friends...