D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Alter Self

[Wippit Guud]

Take a look at it again:
Racial Feats: A bugbear's humanoid levels give it two feats.

Alter Self doesn't give you those bugbear levels, which is represented by the 3 hit dice it gets, one for level 1, one for level 3. You're just getting it's form.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Elves gain a bonus martial weapon feat in long sword and long bow. As an example

Those aren't feats, but individual proficiencies, and aren't listed in the feat section of the elf stat-block.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be hard-headed about this. But I don't believe the text would be there, unless there were creatures to which it referred. So far, I know of no humanoids who have the type of "bonus feats" you are suggesting.

The only one that comes to mind is the human. Now, if an elven wizard uses Alter Self to become a human, does he gain the bonus feat? And if so, can he choose what feat it is? This would make Alter Self infinitely powerful, because the elven mage could use it to gain pretty much any feat he needed at the time... Better, the elven sorcerer, who could Alter Self into a human with whichever particular metamagic feat he wanted, then immediately use it...

This just seems wonky.

Also, consider that Alter Self has a HD limit, which grows as the mage does, so the bugbear isn't immediately available. Also, Alter Self doesn't change ability scores, so the bugbear's strength doesn't transfer. Honestly, I believe that getting the racial feats (as I described,) is both not-overpowering, and was the intent of the designers.

Edit to add: You keep emphasizing the "humanoid levels" part of the line, while ignoring the first two words: racial feats.

 

[Spatula]

Can you name a humanoid that has such a bonus feat?

Not off the top of my head, which is no different than the lack of winged humanoids in the 3.5 MM.

Elves are "automatically proficient" which isn't the same as a bonus feat. Bonus feats are listed with the regular feats and have a B next to them. See the Xill's Multiattack feat, for example, or a dog's Track feat.

 

[Wippit Guud]

Well, if we look at it from your perspective:

Racial Feats: A bugbear's humanoid levels give it two feats.

It doesn't say which feats. Yes, the statblock says Alertness and Weapon Focus, but if those were the bonus feats, then bugbear characters would be forced to take those two feats. But it doesn't, it says just two feats. So, they can be any feat.

That makes it extremely powerful.

 

[Wippit Guud]

From SRD: Elves

• Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

Says bonus feats to me...

 

[Spatula]

Honestly, I'm not trying to be hard-headed about this. But I don't believe the text would be there, unless there were creatures to which it referred. So far, I know of no humanoids who have the type of "bonus feats" you are suggesting.

The spell is only limited to humanoid forms if the caster is humanoid. And again, the spell says you can use it to fly, but there's no winged humanoids in the game unless you're playing with FR material.

Edit to add: You keep emphasizing the "humanoid levels" part of the line, while ignoring the first two words: racial feats.

And you're ignoring the text of the spell itself.

 

[Spatula]

Says bonus feats to me...

I was going by the Elf description from the MM. In any case, the spell is talking about granting "physical qualities" and weapon proficiencies aren't physical.

 

[Wippit Guud]

Got one!

—Racial Feats: A troglodyte's humanoid levels give it one feat. A troglodyte receives Multiattack as a bonus feat

They get multiattack free. I never looked in the character secion for the humanoids

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The spell is only limited to humanoid forms if the caster is humanoid. And again, the spell says you can use it to fly, but there's no winged humanoids in the game unless you're playing with FR material.And you're ignoring the text of the spell itself.

No, I'm not ignoring the text of the spell itself. The spell says you gain "racial bonus feats."

Looking in the Monsters section of the SRD, it says that "Bonus Feats" are marked with a B. Not "racial bonus feats."

Looking at the text of the Bugbear entry, it says "racial feats," not, admittedly, "racial bonus feats."

My belief is that "racial bonus feats" are those feats listed under "racial feats." So a bugbear fighter 3 might have Alertness, Weapon Focus (morningstar), Power Attack, and Cleave. He'd have two feats for being a fighter 3 (Power Attack and Cleave) and two feats just for being a bugbear (Alertness and Weapon Focus (morningstar). So a mage using Alter Self to take the form of a bugbear gets those feats that a bugbear character gets because of his race.

Your contention is (seemingly, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, correct me if I'm wrong) that a bugbear gains Alertness and Weapon Focus (Morningstar) for being a humanoid, and gains no bonus racial feats. Also, that the fact that there are no humanoids in the MM with bonus racial feats (save the elf, I was mistaken,) is irrelevant.

*shrug* I suppose we have little more to discuss on this feats issue. You're not going to convince me, and I doubt I'll convince you. One thing is for certain, though, the new Alter Self is proving as problematic as the old.

Edit to add: I was mistaken. The troglodyte goes a long way towards convincing me. Both "racial" and "bonus" are used to describe the same feat, thus Multiattack would be a racial bonus feat, and others would either be only "racial feats" or only "bonus feats" but not "racial bonus feats."

 

[Wippit Guud]

Just went through all the humanoids... now that I know where to looks, only elves and troglodytes get a bonus feat.