D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Alter Self

[Lord Pendragon]

You would gain the weapon focus as a racial feat (I think), but can only use it if you are also proficient in that weapon.

This makes sense. If for any reason you lose the prerequisites for a feat, you lose access to that feat. So unless you were proficient with a morningstar (a prerequisite for focus) then you'd have Weapon Focus (morningstar) but not be able to use it. Luckily, the morningstar is a simple weapon.

But if you gained the Weapon Focus as a racial feat, you should also gain the Alertness, no?

Originally posted by Whippit Guud

You're looking at the "Bugbear as a character" section... because of their ECL, they gain 2 feats for those 'bugbear' levels.

Yes, but my reasoning is as follows:

1. The bugbear entry lists two feats: Alertness and Weapon Focus (Morningstar).
2. The characters section explains that Bugbears gain two feats as racial feats.
3. Thus, the two feats listed in the bugbear entry are racial feats.
4. The description of Alter Self says that the caster gains racial feats.
5. Thus, a character using Alter Self to become a bugbear should gain its two racial feats, Alertness and Weapon Focus (morningstar).

Or so it would seem.

 

[Wippit Guud]

1. The bugbear entry lists two feats: Alertness and Weapon Focus (Morningstar).
2. The characters section explains that Bugbears gain two feats as racial feats.
3. Thus, the two feats listed in the bugbear entry are racial feats.
4. The description of Alter Self says that the caster gains racial feats.
5. Thus, a character using Alter Self to become a bugbear should gain its two racial feats, Alertness and Weapon Focus (morningstar).

Or so it would seem.

I disagree, cause then, in addition to gaining the +4 to hide, you'd also be gaining 6x(2+int) in skills on top of that (as shown in Racial Skills), and that would make it way way overpowered for a 2nd level spell.

 

[LokiDR]

But if you gained the Weapon Focus as a racial feat, you should also gain the Alertness, no?Yes, but my reasoning is as follows:

1. The bugbear entry lists two feats: Alertness and Weapon Focus (Morningstar).
2. The characters section explains that Bugbears gain two feats as racial feats.
3. Thus, the two feats listed in the bugbear entry are racial feats.
4. The description of Alter Self says that the caster gains racial feats.
5. Thus, a character using Alter Self to become a bugbear should gain its two racial feats, Alertness and Weapon Focus (morningstar).

Or so it would seem.

Racial bonus feats are those that should be list with (B) after the feat name. Else they are from "leveling" as the creature. A good example is the nimblewright. Constructs don't have feats normally, so all of that monster's feats are bonus feats.

 

[Wippit Guud]

Also note where it lists those:
Bugbear characters possess the following racial traits.

SUing alter self doesn't make you a bugbear character, you're just taking its form.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Also note where it lists those:
Bugbear characters possess the following racial traits.

SUing alter self doesn't make you a bugbear character, you're just taking its form.

While I appreciate the sophistry, I don't buy it. The spell specifically says that you gain racial feats. i.e. feats you gain purely based on race, which for a bugbear are Alertness and Weapon Focus (morningstar.)

Furthermore, Alter Self only allows humanoid forms. If there are no humanoids which have racial feats (which is true, if you exclude them all because you aren't an X--character,) then the text of the spell is unnecessary. That text exists because there are humanoids who have racial feats...and you get them.

 

[Number47]

But if you gained the Weapon Focus as a racial feat, you should also gain the Alertness, no?

Yes, I was merely stating that a gained Weapon Focus isn't always usable. Look at the Githyanki, for instance. Weapon Focus Greatsword. Does your wizard even have a greatsword?

 

[Spatula]

3. Thus, the two feats listed in the bugbear entry are racial feats.
4. The description of Alter Self says that the caster gains racial feats.

No, it says, "racial bonus feats" which is different. Any creature with 3 HD gets 2 racial feats. Bonus feats are feats above and beyond what you normally get for your HD, and are noted as being bonus feats in the monster description.

EDIT: A reprint of the relevant section:

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

No, it says, "racial bonus feats" which is different. Any creature with 3 HD gets 2 racial feats. Bonus feats are feats above and beyond what you normally get for your HD, and are noted as being bonus feats in the monster description.

Can you name a humanoid that has such a bonus feat?

 

[Wippit Guud]

Elves gain a bonus martial weapon feat in long sword and long bow. As an example

 

[Number47]

If I Alter Self into an Elf, does that mean I get bow and sword proficiencies? Those are bonus, right?