D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Damage Reduction discussion

[der_kluge]

I suspect this has already been discussed, but I finally got around to really reading the new DR rules. I both like them, and hate them at the same time.

For instance, I like the skeletons 5/bludgeoning DR, and I like that they stack with ANDs or ORs. So, some demons have a DR against Lawful OR Good or Cold, etc. Some have multiple DRs Cold AND Iron, for example. I really like that.

What I hate, is the generic "magic" and the ill-begotten "Epic" categories. I also don't like the "adamantine" category. Adamantine is just a really hard metal, and makes a good set of armor, but it doesn't follow that it would also make a good sword, or mace, for that matter.

So, in my house rules, I've replaced "Adamantine" with +3 weapon. And I'm still using the magic bonus from 3.0 with regards to the DR of dragons. No way anyone is taking down an ancient wyrm with a +1 anything.

And epic is still +5.

 

[Staffan]

Well, the idea with adamantine DR is that adamantine is really good at cutting through hard things - note that it also ignores up to 20 points of hardness. The creatures that have DR X/adamantine are generally those whose DR is more akin to hardness, like golems and other constructs. It does make sense that if you can cut through a stone pillar with an adamantine sword, you should also be able to cut through a stone golem.

 

[der_kluge]

I suppose that's fine, but they're saying that I can't cut through with a +5 sword of sharpness, and that makes no sense to me.

 

[Grazzt]

I suspect this has already been discussed, but I finally got around to really reading the new DR rules. I both like them, and hate them at the same time.

For instance, I like the skeletons 5/bludgeoning DR, and I like that they stack with ANDs or ORs. So, some demons have a DR against Lawful OR Good or Cold, etc. Some have multiple DRs Cold AND Iron, for example. I really like that.

What I hate, is the generic "magic" and the ill-begotten "Epic" categories. I also don't like the "adamantine" category. Adamantine is just a really hard metal, and makes a good set of armor, but it doesn't follow that it would also make a good sword, or mace, for that matter.

So, in my house rules, I've replaced "Adamantine" with +3 weapon. And I'm still using the magic bonus from 3.0 with regards to the DR of dragons. No way anyone is taking down an ancient wyrm with a +1 anything.

And epic is still +5.

I too dislike the "lump sum" treatment of "magic". Not sure how I will handle it in my campaign, but yeah, it is kinda goofy the way they did it (though I understand why...for simplicity's sake.)

BTW- Epic is +6 or greater. A +5 weapon is not epic.

 

[Coredump]

I suppose that's fine, but they're saying that I can't cut through with a +5 sword of sharpness, and that makes no sense to me

Makes perfect sense to me. I wouldn't expect a very sharp sword to be very good at chopping through a stone pillar, or a stone golem.

.

 

[DreamChaser]

sharpness is not a factor of hardness (anyone who's ever gotten a paper cut knows this). A sword can be magically sharp (so it always stays extra sharp) without being magically hard (that is why the magic is needed to keep it sharp)

DC

 

[der_kluge]

Grazzt, I meant that I intend to treat "epic" as just +5, like it was, instead of +6 like its intended to be now in 3.5.

Sharpness isn't a factor of hardness, but I have a hard time seeing how a sword like that couldn't effectively cut through iron, or anything.

Like I said, adamantine is just a really, really hard metal. It does not follow that it makes a sharp weapon - just a really hard one.

 

[Planesdragon]

I suppose that's fine, but they're saying that I can't cut through with a +5 sword of sharpness, and that makes no sense to me.

Er, a +5 Sword of what again, exactly? Last I checked, "Sharpness" wasn't a property of magical weapons anymore.

Anyway...

You know how diamonds, those really really hard stones, can scratch anything? Cutting things is a lot like scratching them, but a little more involved. (We use diamond saws to cut very hard stone, for example.)

Adamantine, which is a very strong and very hard material, makes for great armor and a great weapon because it's so amazingly hard _and_ as strong as steel is. It's a magical material that can't exist on earth--but trust me, if we could make body armor with a hardness of 10 and the same strength, or make plates of diamond that weren't brittle, we would, and we'd have a brand new type of armor / knife blade.

It might help to remember that, for a very hard material, everything else is soft.

 

[der_kluge]

Planesdragon, I can recognize and appreciate the fact that things like diamonds are very hard and can cut through anything. However, you're forgetting the fact that when you use something like a diamond-tipped saw, or a diamond-tipped drill, you're applying a huge amount of horsepower to that force. Making a sword out of diamonds isn't going to get you very far against an iron golem. Sure, you might scratch it up pretty good, but it's still a freaking 12 foot tall statue made of solid iron. In my mind, only a blade with a magical enhancement is going to have any chance of slicing through that.

Of course, that begs the question - is an adamantine sword going to be very effective against an adamantine golem?

And I guess you're right, they removed the special ability of sharpness. I wonder why?

 

[dok]

die_kluge, thank you so much for introducing physics into our discussion of a fantasy roleplaying game.

of course, that begs the question - is an adamantine sword going to be very effective against an adamantine golem?

Of course not! Adamantine weapons ignores hardness less than 20, but adamantine itself has a hardness of 20. Adamantine armor grants DR, based on the volume used. So a true 3.5 Adamantine Golem would have DR X/-, making it very formidable.


As for "epic", you don't see much of that. It's meant to be reserved for things literally not killable by mere mortals. Right now, the only offical things running around with DR x/epic are GODS, the tarrasque, and the Solar, IIRC. If you never use Epic rules, you'll almost never see it be a factor. So why fuss with it?

Think of Adamantine as possessing two extraordinary qualities. One is the ability to retain an incredibly sharp edge (ignoring hardness of less than 20), the other bieng incredible hardness itself. Don't try to associate the two.