[3.5] Dawn of the Touch-Attack specialist?

[Kalendraf]

I think Weapon Finesse (Touch) was the must-have feat to make a spellcaster good with touch spells, given the fact that the majority of arcane spellcasters have low Str and average or high Dex for defense. The new WF adds some side benefits, for example for elven arcane casters (Rapier), and may make the caster use Daggers instead of QStaffs.

Where does it mention that Touch is an option of Weapon Finesse? From the entry in the new PHB pg 102, there is nothing describing touch attacks in the Weapon Finesse feat description. It only says it helps with a Light Weapon, Rapier, Whip or Spiked Chain. On the weapon table pg 116, unarmed attacks are not listed under light weapons.

I agree that this would be cool for a touch caster if it is allowed, but I don't see a rule to allow touch attacks to be helped by Weapon Finesse.

 

[Morrow]

Where does it mention that Touch is an option of Weapon Finesse? From the entry in the new PHB pg 102, there is nothing describing touch attacks in the Weapon Finesse feat description. It only says it helps with a Light Weapon, Rapier, Whip or Spiked Chain. On the weapon table pg 116, unarmed attacks are not listed under light weapons.

I agree that this would be cool for a touch caster if it is allowed, but I don't see a rule to allow touch attacks to be helped by Weapon Finesse.

I'm not sure if it was directly addressed in the core books, but Tome and Blood has a section on applying 'weapon' feats to spells, it talks about using weapon finesse, focus, or even specialization with touch spells or rays.

It does look like 3.5 will see more arcane casters focusing on touch spells, however on the divine side of the house it was always pretty solid approach. I played a goblin cleric specializing in touch spells for quite a while. With inflicts, death knell,poison, bestow curse, contagion, and slay living, focussing on touch attacks turned out to be a pretty solid strategy. Admitedly, my lack of forsight in designing the character did neutralize some of his effectiveness, (his low Constitution made it difficult to stay toe to toe with high CR opponents and his low Strength and small size made him meat for all those monsters with improved grab running around), but the theory is sound.

Morrow

 

[Li Shenron]

Where does it mention that Touch is an option of Weapon Finesse? From the entry in the new PHB pg 102, there is nothing describing touch attacks in the Weapon Finesse feat description. It only says it helps with a Light Weapon, Rapier, Whip or Spiked Chain. On the weapon table pg 116, unarmed attacks are not listed under light weapons.

I agree that this would be cool for a touch caster if it is allowed, but I don't see a rule to allow touch attacks to be helped by Weapon Finesse.

Well, it was in Tome & Blood actually, so it's not a core rule.

Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead
RotFLMAO! That's a wonderful show! Too bad I only saw two episodes of it.

Congratulation! You are the first to comment my sig
It's really the funniest show I have ever seen, even better than Friends. If you missed it, I think they're making an US version of it next year, exactly to replace Friends when it ends.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm not sure if it was directly addressed in the core books, but Tome and Blood has a section on applying 'weapon' feats to spells, it talks about using weapon finesse, focus, or even specialization with touch spells or rays.

In case Kalendraf wants to know more, T&B basically states that you can take any weapon-specific feat to the "weapon types" Touch Spell, Energy Missile or Ray, provided you meet all the prerequisites.

So once you have BAB +1 and Dex 13 you could have Weapon Finesse (Touch) which would work for all your Touch Spells. In the same way you could take feats like Weapon Focus, Improved Critical (quite high req...), etc. Another thing, ranged feats like Point Blank Shot work with all spells that require a ranged attack.

In some case the feats may not work: for ex. if you cast a Ray which doesn't deliver damage, you don't get +1 damage from PBS but only +1 to attack.

Weapon Spec would require 4 levels of Figther, and it is basically substituted by Spell Spec.

edit:
IIRC, eligible feats for "Touch Casters" could be...
Ambidexterity *
Combat Reflexes
Improved Critical
Improved 2WF *
Improved Unarmed Strike **
Spell Specialization (Touch)
Spring Attack
Stunning Fist **
2WF *
Weapon Finesse (Touch)
Weapon Focus (Touch)

* I wonder who would ever do, but T&B has guidelines for using a weapon and a touch attack at the same time
** again there are specific guidelines in T&B about combining a touch spell with an unarmed strike, which would be useful for a Monk/Sorc

Furthermore, there COULD be touch spells which affect more creatures (each with a successful attack) and may benefit from Cleave, WWA...

 

[Plane Sailing]

I agree that this would be cool for a touch caster if it is allowed, but I don't see a rule to allow touch attacks to be helped by Weapon Finesse.

Surely this is a Doh! decision for a DM though? Why on earth would a DM *not* rule that touch attacks can be finessed?

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

Where does it mention that Touch is an option of Weapon Finesse? From the entry in the new PHB pg 102, there is nothing describing touch attacks in the Weapon Finesse feat description. It only says it helps with a Light Weapon, Rapier, Whip or Spiked Chain. On the weapon table pg 116, unarmed attacks are not listed under light weapons.

3.0 PHB, page 103, "Unarmed Strike"
"You can use the Weapon Finesse feat (see page 86) to apply your Dex modiifer instead of your Str modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike".

A touch attack is an unarmed strike that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Ergo, Weapon Finesse (Touch Attack) or Weapon Finesse (Unarmed) would both allow you to use your Dex modifier to discharge a touch spell.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Found a definite answer to my own question. PHB [3.5] pg 142.

"If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."

It's good that 3.5 provides a definitive answer-- especially one I agree with!

 

[drnuncheon]

While looking for the rule that says that unarmed strikes are light weapons (page 113, 2nd column: "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon." - so it is eligible for Finesse), I noticed this in the desciption of Improved Unarmed Strike:

"In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option."

Nice!

J

 

[Gallo22]

Great thread folks!!! This is why I like EN World. no bickering, no name calling, just good discussion on the rules!!

Gallo22

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

With good Concentration/Casting Defensively (and with the rule that you can combine cast+move+touch in a FRA, if it's still there - or was it a FAQ?

Cast-move-touch is in there as a core rule, which is nice -- the obvious down side being that it leaves you standing next to the enemy you just touch attacked when his turn rolls around. If you're a sorcere/wizard, better have mage armor & shield up.

I played a monk-sorcerer for a while who specialized in touch attacks. It was fun -- Spring Attack begin the must-have feat to pull it off with a low AC. I preferred mutliple-touch spells like chill touch, so casting on the first round, then Spring Attacking on later rounds discharging spells. But the new shocking Grasp looks pretty good now too.