3.5 high level woes and Paizo's hand in it.

[Shroomy]

FURTHER EDIT: Is there a market for high level adventures anyway? Six years of being in the Adventure Market make me think that answer is, unfortunately, no. From a customer viewpoint AND from a game designer viewpoint... High level adventures were ALWAYS hard to get folks to write (and write well) for Dungeon. The most popular level was 7th level.

Isn't this something of a self-fulfilling prophecy? I'm fairly confident that higher-level play will never be as popular as lower-level play, simply because of the time investment involved with getting to those levels, but if the system effectively starts to break down, requiring a lot of work and patience to get it to work right (if at all), then its going to directly impact its popularity and thus sales. If there isn't much of a market, then in general, people aren't going to focus their efforts on writing for it, and if they're not writing for it and not running it, then there not going to be able to get the experience necessary to write a good high level adventure, which is especially important IMO since one of the primary reasons why it is so hard to write a good one is because of the mechanical breakdown and all the extra work that it entails.

 

[DaveMage]

2. 1E/2E are the fastest RPG systems I've ever seen played. 4E is faster paced than 3E, but resolving combat takes about the same amount of time.

I love the speed of 1E/2E. But I love the feat system too much to ever go back to 1E/2E. Overall combat speed is what I'd like to improve - but I don't know how to do it without taking away combat options.

Well... Just off the top of my head, are skill points for NPCs really the key to a fulfilling experience?

How many of them matter in combat? Concentration? Tumble? Spot?

A simplified skill system for NPCs (and monsters) would be fine (and even preferred).

I also like what Paizo has done with the CMB. The method for resolution has been quickened, but the options have not changed (you can still bull rush, overrun, etc.).

Thinking about it a bit more, I guess the options I'm really referring to are PC options. For example, I wouldn't want to lose the option to grapple simply beacuse grappling can take some extra time to resolve.

FURTHER EDIT: Is there a market for high level adventures anyway?

I'd buy 'em.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I love the speed of 1E/2E. But I love the feat system too much to ever go back to 1E/2E. Overall combat speed is what I'd like to improve - but I don't know how to do it without taking away combat options.

Thinking about it a bit more, I guess the options I'm really referring to are PC options.

System mastery plays a role here.

Certainly you can fault any system that introduces options for the PCs faster than the players can assimilate them.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I've jumped to the end of this thread after reading only the first few posts, because I was worried about spoliers. So apologies if I go over stuff already said.

I'm very interested to read the OP, as I was beginning to think much the same thing: the APs are designed for hard core munchkin characters. Allow me to explain my experience.

Age of Worms spoilers follow.

We are into the second part of Age of Worms, the mines with the Ebon Triad cultists. Our party was 7 strong (down to 6 now.) So I was interested to read that the AoW was designed for 6.

So far we have avoided 3 TPKs purely out of GM fudging.

1st: at the end of the Whispering Cairn. 5x 1st and 2nd level characters fighting 2x power gamed 6th level monsters (the Wind Duke's soldiers) which are given automatic surprise and, with +9 Initiative almost certainly first action in the round after that. A miracle* any one survived.

2nd: in the the temple of Hextor. Bad guys 3rd and 4th level, party 2nd and 3rd. Numbers even. Partly this was the fault of the GM just deciding one of the bad guys could run down a 20 foot wall, across 20 feet of sand in the arena, get an attack in and stand between us the escape route. Said bad guy was spiked chain wielding trip monkey. We got past him and were about to run when a PC who'd died in an earlier fight came back in a flash of light, all buffed out the wazoo* and turned the tide of battle.

3rd: Penultimate fight against the Erythnul cultists. Tough bottle-neck to get into the cave followed by being attacked by a 6th level barbarian (party 3rd and 4th level) with additional buffs from potions. Miracle we survived.*

*All miracles supplied by GM fiat. Conditions apply.

I don't like this style of play. I should maybe point my GM to this thread. It might give him some pointers about how to handle/tone down the AP.

cheers all.

 

[Rechan]

System mastery plays a role here.

Certainly you can fault any system that introduces options for the PCs faster than the players can assimilate them.

Or assume that most if not all players are going to grok system mastery.

Some players (and some playstyles) just do not give themselves to character building finesse.

Although with someone like that, they should run far, far away from high level play.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Or assume that most if not all players are going to grok system mastery.

Some players (and some playstyles) just do not give themselves to character building finesse.

Although with someone like that, they should run far, far away from high level play.

The bad issue with system mastery and playstyles is that in terms of 3.5E, differences kill. They really don't mix. Get a group together where some people powergame and others don't, and tears will follow. Get a group together who want different things out of the game, and tears will follow. I can understand that people who have put together a good group of like minded people have had wonderful experiences with the system. I can also say that my own experiences, involving a motley group of different abilities and playstyles, found it pretty much impossible to get a harmonious game of 3.5E off the ground.

 

[Rechan]

The bad issue with system mastery and playstyles is that in terms of 3.5E, differences kill. They really don't mix. Get a group together where some people powergame and others don't, and tears will follow.

Oh I know.

I've ran for groups of ROLEplayers. Those same groups just got frustrated and confused when they leveled up.

I've also seen a group who made their choices based on their CHARACTER. Where the only healer is a Cleric 3/Pal 2. The only spellcaster is a Sorcerer 3/Rogue 2. And the party routinely got its ass handed to it because the DM went by the book with CRs.

I don't have anything against that style, but I feel bad for those players. Because I believe that 1) 3e punishes you for playing that way, and 2) it leads to frustration for that kind of player, because they're fighting against the system itself. Not to mention that 3) I feel there's not a lot of more fluff, less combat focused options for those types of players.

No, I'm not a fan of system mastery.

 

[Plissken]

Never played high level before. Started 3.5 and soon after 4e came out. Besides spellcasters kicking ass, which, I don't have a problem with since that is what the Wizard is all about, what other problems are there?

It seems to me like melee fighters in high level just do multiple attacks. Roll like, what, 4 d20s and then damage.

There was talk of grindiness. How's this different from 4e grind? 4e high level monsters have like, 800-2000 HP. While high-level damage output is...4-6[W] + Strength mod. Difference?

I'm also hearing talk of monsters kicking too much ass. So far in my experience with D&D 4e, with Dungeons own Scale of War AP, there are so many encounters that are much above the parties level. I've been in encounter after encounter where at least there has almost been a TPK or at least 3-4 characters unconscious.

Just wanting to hear the differences since I've never played high 3.5.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I've jumped to the end of this thread after reading only the first few posts, because I was worried about spoliers. [...] Age of Worms spoilers follow.

Um ... okay.

1st: at the end of the Whispering Cairn. 5x 1st and 2nd level characters fighting 2x power gamed 6th level monsters (the Wind Duke's soldiers) which are given automatic surprise and, with +9 Initiative almost certainly first action in the round after that. A miracle* any one survived.

We fought for one round in this encounter and then ran. It's my opinion that it was intended as an initially unbeatable encounter. (We went back at 2nd- or 3rd-level and kicked wind warrior butt.)

2nd: in the the temple of Hextor. [...] 3rd: Penultimate fight against the Erythnul cultists.

This whole adventure was very difficult, I found. We beat the Erythnul cultists, after I stubbornly refused to run, because my PC got lucky and critted the strongest barbarian. I was Disabled at the time.

That would have been a TPK.

There have been many very challenging encounters since, but the only real TPK possibilities were caused by the DM. (E.g., granting surprise round to the bad guys when there really should not have been one. Stuff like that.) But yeah, that adventure against the Ebon Triad was flat out brutal.

 

[Runestar]

There was talk of grindiness. How's this different from 4e grind? 4e high level monsters have like, 800-2000 HP. While high-level damage output is...4-6[W] + Strength mod. Difference?

In 3e, it was not impossible to kill a foe in a single attack or full attack action at high levels. It simply took forever to resolve the attack sequence because of all the modifiers involved.