D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Hold Person Super-Nerf

[Al]

The new Hold Person is probably more dangerous than the old Hold Person even if it is weaker, but the one that slipped through the net is Color Spray.

Hold Person was nerfed, Sleep was nerfed (reduced HD affected, increased casting time), but Color Spray was left as is...

...when in fact it is patently more powerful. At low-levels, it is more powerful than Sleep...affecting an average of 3.5 creatures of 2HD, it affects 7HD- significanty more than Sleep. It lasts longer (2d4 rounds) for the unconsciousness, which is better than Sleep. It cannot be broken, unlike Sleep. It is significantly better at high levels compared to Sleep (i.e. it has still *some* use).

Compared to the new Hold Person, it's a close-ish call. Stunning a group of enemies for one round is still very useful, and the multiple targets are a nice boost.

Another unchanged spell is Ghoul Touch. Ghoul Touch was always a bit of a weaker cousin to Hold Person, given that it was a touch attack and (at high levels) had a shorter duration. It was still very useful, and now is a must for a low-level wizard. Send in a familiar with a decent touch attack, such as a raven or owl, and you have a paralysed opponent who is likely to be more vulnerable to cdg (lower Fort saves) and sickens his allies as a nifty boost.

Compared with Color Spray and Ghoul Touch, the old Hold Person was not broken. The new Hold Person is still of 2nd level calibre, but, ironically, is now far more dangerous. A nice DM could reconcile not cdg-ing a 3e held person with sound tactics- with 5 rounds left, there is plenty of opportunity to deal with him after the battle is over. With the new Hold Person, almost any tactically optimised foe with cdg as soon as possible.

 

[Darklone]

Colour Spray has a HD cap and is easily countered by closing ones eyes... And the save is easier

 

[Cedric]

The nerf to Hold Person was just one more in a long list of spells that have been neutered, and yet many people still complain that there are too many spells that are broken, making it too hard for their Half-Fiend Dragon Disciple Templar Dwarven Defender to survive every battle unscathed...

Cedric

 

[The Halfling]

Colour Spray has a HD cap and is easily countered by closing ones eyes... And the save is easier

Actually, Color Spray no longer has a level cap. Nor does it only effect 1d6 creatures in its area. It seems to have received a boost in the power department.

 

[fbmf]

Hold Person is now even more save or die than it was before.

If I fire off a successful hold person now, the melee types in my party know that this round is there only for sure chance to CdG. They don't leave the held person to deal with his friends for a round or two, like they did with the 3.0 version, thereby leaving his friends the chance to save him if they win the encounter. They kill him that round, as they do not want him to qualify for a save next round. (We houserule that in order to make a save, you must be alive. Maybe that's just us. )

Game On,
fbmf

 

[Plane Sailing]

Colour Spray has a HD cap and is easily countered by closing ones eyes... And the save is easier

From the SRD:

5 or more HD: The creature is stunned for 1 round.

In other words it always remains useful - no target ever has enough HD to ignore it outright. The only limitation is that the base DC is low since it is a 1st level spell.

Cheers

 

[Celtavian]

re

I tend to agree that the change to Hold Person only further encourages its use as a "save or die" spell. Before you could use the spell to capture someone or immobilize an opponent or charmed comrade, now its only good for immobilizing an opponent to Coup De Gras them as fast as possible.

I think a better mechanic would have been to allow another save when someone is lining up the Coup De Gras or is struck for damage. Saving once a round is way too often to make the spell useful for anything other than a coordinated Coup De Gras. It just be wasting a spell slot.

Now given that there are mass versions of Hold spells, I definitely wouldn't make it single save spell. I still think making hold spell saves conditional like a Charm or Domination spell would have made Hold spells useful for other activities like kidnapping or dealing with a charmed or dominated comrade.

 

[Nail]

...the melee types in my party know that this round is there only for sure chance to CdG.

(shakes head) People are really fixated on this. I'm not sure it's a major change in the CdG department, actually. This spell is used at range, and the held foe is often not right next to an enemy. As CdG is a full round action, youu can't do it the same round the enemy is held, as you have to move up to him.

Besides, if you're casting Hold person, you're probably casting it on the fighter type opponent in front with low Will saves. Then you charge past him and whack the BBEG who was hiding behind him.

 

[Darklone]

Colour Spray: I was referring to it's application to make opponents helpless... I do like the spell

 

[isoChron]

Death Blow is the feat to take
CdG as Standard Action is now more important than ever.
BYE