D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Hold Person Super-Nerf

[Camarath]

yes but its still had to be a humaniod of the D&D teminology, not just something with two legs, two arms and a single head.

I know but it works on Enlarged (3.5 version) Humaniods now.

 

[Zappo]

Ahh ok I thought he was ralking about the 3.0 to 3.5 nerf. On the up side there is no longer a size limitation in 3.5.

It only works on humanoids, though, and all humanoids that I know are medium-sized. Maybe there are a few large ones, I dunno, but anything above that is likely a Giant.

 

[AuraSeer]

It only works on humanoids, though, and all humanoids that I know are medium-sized.

The enlarge person spell now increases the target's size category.

It would suck a lot more if 3rd-level hold person were prevented by 1st-level enlarge person, especially since most fighters will want to have the enlarge running in every significant battle.

 

[jgsugden]

Of course it was too strong. A spell that renders a victim helpless at 2nd level (for clerics) was far too strong. Even witht he nerf, it is *still* too strong. People are fixiating on how much the spell lost, they have yet to consider how useful it remains.

Yes, they get a saving throw each round. All that means is that you must plan out how to use it and get your C'dG in before the opponent's next action. It is still a very strong spell. It is still the strongest 2nd level cleric spell out there for stopping powerul humanoid fighter types.

 

[Thanee]

Essentially a save-or-die spell at 2nd spell level, they had to put it back in line!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Simplicity]

Hold person is hardly a save-or-die spell.
Remove paralysis, dispel magic, freedom of movement...
All good counters to have around, especially if you got
'em in a magic item.

If hold person is so nasty, why do ghouls have such a low CR?
Why aren't they slaughtering everybody?

Yes, you can wake someone up with sleep... One person per
round. Sleep affects multiple people.

Also, charm person is a 1st level spell. I can think of dozens
of ways to easily kill off someone who is charmed:
- "Big sword you got there... Lemme see that..."
- "Put out your hands and close your eyes, and I'll give you a big surprise!"
- "Go check out that room up there for us."
- "Have some healing potion."

 

[Saeviomagy]

Hold person is hardly a save-or-die spell.
Remove paralysis, dispel magic, freedom of movement...
All good counters to have around, especially if you got
'em in a magic item.

Hmm - of those, only remove paralysis is second level. As for putting them in a magic item at low level? Forgeddaboutit

If hold person is so nasty, why do ghouls have such a low CR?
Why aren't they slaughtering everybody?

It doesn't take much before ghouls ARE slaughtering anybody. A low level party without a cleric is in serious trouble against ghouls.

Yes, you can wake someone up with sleep... One person per
round. Sleep affects multiple people. Finally, you only get one attempt on the sleeping target before he wakes up.

Sleep affects roughly half of the targets. Which means the other half of the targets are around to wake them. It also has some significant limitations, like hit dice.

Also, charm person is a 1st level spell. I can think of dozens
of ways to easily kill off someone who is charmed:
- "Big sword you got there... Lemme see that..."
- "Put out your hands and close your eyes, and I'll give you a big surprise!"
- "Go check out that room up there for us."
- "Have some healing potion."

Charm person has some serious limitations, not least of which the +5 on the save if you're being threatened or attacked. Also, like sleep, you're only really going to get a single chance to kill the guy - after that, he's likely to work out that his bestest buddy is trying to kill him.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If hold person is so nasty, why do ghouls have such a low CR?
Why aren't they slaughtering everybody?

If you are going to make the comparison with 1e/2e, you need to look at the save chart. ~8th level Fighters had what quite good saves -- in context, their saves are as a 3e Monk.

IME, ghouls sometimes do slaughter everybody. If they survive the first round of combat they will get a full attack, potentially paralyzing multiple PCs. I have seen it happen. Nasty.

 

[AuraSeer]

Also, charm person is a 1st level spell. I can think of dozens of ways to easily kill off someone who is charmed:

This is hardly as simple as you imply. As soon as you attack or do anything else threatening, the charm is immediately broken, so unless you can pull off a one-shot kill you are out of luck. (And if you can kill somebody in a single shot, you don't need the charm in the first place.)

Taking someone's weapon is hardly fatal. You get one swing, which is not likely to kill anyone, and then the victim is free. Assuming you're a caster and he's somebody with a low Will save, he can probably take the sword right back from you immediately.

Sending a character one room over will not instantly kill him. A charmed character does not become stupid, and despite your requests he can retreat when he encounters the monsters that outclass him. If he sets off a trap, he can survive one shot and then bug out. (If the dungeon contains an Instant Death trap that cannot be avoided, shoot your DM in the face with a bazooka and start over.)

If you have access to instant-death poison whose save DC is high enough to kill this character, you have no need of the charm. You could have killed him with a blowgun or a shuriken.

Telling the victim to close his eyes does not make him helpless, so he is not subject to CDG. The only way closed eyes would lead to a one-hit kill is if you had an assassin ally who could make a death attack; again, the scenario does not require charm.

 

[Grog]

Yes, they get a saving throw each round. All that means is that you must plan out how to use it and get your C'dG in before the opponent's next action. It is still a very strong spell. It is still the strongest 2nd level cleric spell out there for stopping powerul humanoid fighter types.

Exactly - instead of leaving the target be for a few rounds, you now have to CDG them immediately or they might break free.

Now, what repurcussions does that have for player characters who fall victim to Hold Person?