D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Hold Person Super-Nerf

[Simplicity]

I suddenly realized (while playing ToEE) that Hold Person
received a hefty nerfing in 3.5. Hold Person now targets
a single person and has a save every round to break the
effect.

Does anyone else think this is going too far with this spell?
Hold Person used to be able to hold MULTIPLE targets for a long
period of time. Then they nerfed it to one target. Then it got
nerfed again such that you save every round? The odds of breaking
free are reasonably good if you've got good saves, so this spell
basically wastes your party cleric's turn to waste an enemy's turn.
Maybe.

Was Hold Person really that overpowered? If the designers we're worried
about coup de graces, the Sleep spell works MUCH better at level 1 instead
of 2 or 3...

 

[Felix]

It's a Will Save that takes out front liners very easily; that's generally their worst save. As they are on the front line, it is very easy to CdG.

It can still take out front liners easily now (although not for as long), it's still low level, but ceases to be a "save or death" spell. Although you still could CdG someone. You'd just better be near them, eh?

[Edit] Oh yeah, Sleep has a similar CdG problem, but the sleeper can be woken up easily by their allies, and it has a HD cap; both of which Hold Person doesn't have.

 

[frankthedm]

Myself, i just changed the hold spells to give you a dex of 1, left you open to sneak attacks and prevented you from taking physical actions. Not helpless but darn close.

i will admit, a will save, take you out of the battle spell. sucks for fighters.

 

[Camarath]

Hold Person used to be able to hold MULTIPLE targets for a long period of time.

Really multiple targets with the same Hold Person spell hmm...Target: One humanoid of Medium-size or smaller

 

[Zappo]

Really multiple targets with the same Hold Person spell hmm...Target: One humanoid of Medium-size or smaller

Back in 2E, it affected 1d4 targets, or something like that. Horribly broken, but then, what wasn't?

 

[frankthedm]

Really multiple targets with the same Hold Person spell hmm...Target: One humanoid of Medium-size or smaller

1E, Hold Person hit 1d4 people in a 10 foot radius IIR. NOT your choice of whome.

 

[Grog]

Really multiple targets with the same Hold Person spell hmm...Target: One humanoid of Medium-size or smaller

He's talking about 1E and 2E.

But I agree, the change to Hold Person (like so many of the 3.5 changes) made matters worse, not better. The spell is now MORE dangerous to PCs, because enemies will CDG them as quickly as possible once they're held for fear they'll break free, whereas before, they could ignore a held PC and focus on the rest of the party. And it's less useful in the hands of PCs because even a creature with a poor Will save will probably break free in 2-3 rounds at most, unless a PC takes an entire round to CDG them - which is a luxury you don't always have, especially if you're in a really hairy battle.

 

[Henry]

Moved to D&D Rules.

 

[Camarath]

He's talking about 1E and 2E.

Ahh ok I thought he was ralking about the 3.0 to 3.5 nerf. On the up side there is no longer a size limitation in 3.5.

 

[frankthedm]

yes but its still had to be a humaniod of the D&D teminology, not just something with two legs, two arms and a single head.

Hold Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)
A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.
Arcane Focus: A small, straight piece of iron.


that does not include monsterous huaniods like minotaurs, medusas or other things like those