D&D General Hot Take: D&D Has Not Recovered From 2E to 3.0 Transition

[glass]

I have that t-shirt. Had to explain it a few times.

I have a t-shirt that says "There are 2 types of people in the world. 1. Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data."

I think I have had to explain it twice, and TBF one of them was to someone whose first language wasn't English (although his English was a damn site better than my Russian).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My guess is that they had nobody left who knew how to fix it when it broke, so they shut it down before it did shut itself down. No way to know how much money it was making at that point, other than it was presumably less than at the peak but more than zero.

the important point is it did infact shut down, something important to remember when thinking about trusting WotC with a digital only purchase that is locked behind a severer.

 

[Garthanos]

dumb stuff like this happens more than people realize in the business world because we don't value the computer guys enough to accept them at their word when they say they need redundancy in positions and knowledge.

Nods I have seen the like happen personally ...

 

[Garthanos]

Yes and no. I think punching above your weight because you prepared well and prepared just the right silver bullet spell or brought the right gear is fine. For example, in one game I was running the PCs were fighting an aboleth in a cavern filled with water to a depth somewhere between 30 and 40 feet. My plan was to have the aboleth do hit-and-run attacks with psychic nonsense and slimey tentacles and such, and really making a nuisance of itself and forcing the PCs to either play whack-a-mole with it or go underwater.

Then the cleric cast control water, lowering the water in the area by 40 feet. So now there's nowhere for the aboleth to swim, and it's limited to its land movement rate of 5 ft. Made the whole thing a lot easier by letting the melee characters just walk up to the abomination and filet it.

But things like hold person and Tasha's hideous laughter are a bit too widely usable to fit in the silver bullet category. They're just cheap.

This seems to me is an issue with spell design in 5e extreme open ended control value and extreme versatility

Random person in Nebraska Raises his hand

 

[Staffan]

This seems to me is an issue with spell design in 5e extreme open ended control value and extreme versatility

Like I said in the other reply: I don't have a problem with control water. It's a narrow spell, and its use was timed perfectly. Well played. It's the more generally useful save-or-suck spells I have an issue with.

 

[Voadam]

This seems to me is an issue with spell design in 5e extreme open ended control value and extreme versatility

Clerics have always had open ended control and a lot of versatility.*

*(4e being the exception by limiting their spells/powers instead of choosing from everything any day).

By the end of 2e there were three 288 page volumes of the priest's spell compendium for clerics to choose spells from each game day.

I liked 3.5's Unearthed Arcana spontaneous divine caster alternate rules that gave them spells known like a sorcerer to give them more individuality in their daily powers but still broad scroll casting flexible opportunities.

 

[Alzrius]

By the end of 2e there were three 288 page volumes of the priest's spell compendium for clerics to choose spells from each game day.

Did they have access to all of those spells, though? Because notwithstanding sphere access, I recall there being spell research rules for clerics, and I know I saw at least a few references to them finding old clerical spells on forgotten scrolls, tablets, etc. Which was weird to consider, because priests request their spells from their god, which means that their celestial/infernal patron is the one actually making and dispensing those spells; why do they have to be independently "invented" by different priests across the mortal world?

 

[James Gasik]

Did they have access to all of those spells, though? Because notwithstanding sphere access, I recall there being spell research rules for clerics, and I know I saw at least a few references to them finding old clerical spells on forgotten scrolls, tablets, etc. Which was weird to consider, because priests request their spells from their god, which means that their celestial/infernal patron is the one actually making and dispensing those spells; why do they have to be independently "invented" by different priests across the mortal world?

As I recall it's less that they were invented, and more that, with prayer, meditation and offerings, you convince your deity to grant you the new spell. The Tome of Magic points out that Gods can have access to other Spheres and spells than those they normally grant, but in times of need or crisis, can suddenly grant access to their priests (this was done to explain the new Spheres printed in that book, as well as the existence of Quest spells that exceeded the normal power level of Clerical magic).

 

[Garthanos]

Clerics have always had open ended control and a lot of versatility.*

I think less so in 1e? They were strongly focusing on a particular model instead of all fantasy pantheons

 

[Voadam]

Did they have access to all of those spells, though? Because notwithstanding sphere access, I recall there being spell research rules for clerics, and I know I saw at least a few references to them finding old clerical spells on forgotten scrolls, tablets, etc. Which was weird to consider, because priests request their spells from their god, which means that their celestial/infernal patron is the one actually making and dispensing those spells; why do they have to be independently "invented" by different priests across the mortal world?

As a default yes. If your game used the Tome of Magic or Prayers from the Faithful or the Compendiums that expanded the lists to choose from. Just like Unearthed Arcana added to the lists in 1e.

The compendium says that the standard rule is that clerics get everything but that a more useful rule is that PH spells are common and special spells are for research and that the DM is the ultimate arbiter of what's available and they recommend that clerics only get PH spells outside of special tomes or research.

Page 7:

"Players and DMs should be aware that while the standard rule is that priests have free access to all spells on their respective lists, a more useful ruling is to use all common spells in allowed spheres. This gives the maximum ability to the DM to reward players occasionally with new spells and to encourage magical research as a campaign activity. We highly recommend that additions to priest spell lists be allowed only through research or through the recovery of certain lost tomes.
The DM always decides whether a priesthood is allowed a spell if there is any question."

So there is support for a DM to differ from the standard rule, but the baseline is still there.